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NEWS CONFERENCE
GOVERNOR FARRIS BR!ANT
TALLAHASSEE, FLORIDA
HEHSNEN PARTICIPATING: Vernon Bradford, TAMPA TRIBUNE: Robert W.
Delaney, ORLANDO SENTINEL~STAR3 Barbara Frye, UNITED PRESS
INTERNATIONAL; David Greteeh, OAPITOL REVS SERVICE: Jerry Mock,
scan a. PERRY PAPERS; Don Showermen, ASSOCIATED PRESS; Ray Starr.ABc
RADIO; George Thurston, With-W; Rick Tuttle. MIMI mar.
PETRRSRURO TIMES SERVIonsznn Haldron, 3T. eeeeaseuno TIMES-MIAMI
HERALD SERVICE: OVid Lexie, FREELANOE: John Turner, WFGAeWTVW:
Glenn Tomlineon, FLORIDA BROADCAST REVS; Doug Starr. ASSOCIATED
PRESS; Tom Rater, INSIDE POLITICS; Allen Merrie, ORACKER POLITICS:
Prank Neel, ASSOCIATED PRESS: Rick Tuttle. MIAMI HEARLD-ST.
PETERSBURO'TIHBS SERVICE
GOVERNOR: Good morning.
R. STARR: Good morning, Governor.
GOVERNOR: Do you have any queatlona this morning?
TUTTLE: why don't we etnrt at the top with John Hammer. What in
your reaction to the series or articlee dealing with hie expenses?
GOVERNOR: Well, the articles, or course, disturb me greatly. On
the day that I was first in the office after the scuth American
trip, which I believe was hhrch h -- Ronday a week ago in any event
-- having aecn some or the preliminaries of the st. Petereburg
Times activities. I discussed this matter with hr. Hammer and he
requested that I send in etote auditors. On that day. I rtqueetod
the State Auditor to proceed with a complete atate audit of the
activities, or the records rather, of the Turnpike Authority.
They began on anon on wee practicable, sometime last week. They put
on one man and than they put on two men. "on they have three men.
and I think they are trying to run a fourth one in there to rush an
audit or those records no rapidly on possible to ascertain what are
the facts in thin situation. I have talked with the head at the
Auditing Department. or course, they have not yet had an opportunity
to develop any definitive date. I do know, however, that at my
requeat they are pressing ahead full speed.
BRADFORD: How long do you anticipate it will be, Oovornor?
GOVERNOR: I.don't know. I would hope that there will be information,
while not in the form or a complete audit, I.om hopeful that there
,will be information coming to me from time to time relative to
specific aapeete of it. while I have not -- my instructions to then
were to do a complete audit and to advice me what are the fiscal
recto. New, I think you ought to have a little backgroundor what
the normal reporting procedures or the Turnpike Authority are.
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sented by revenue indentures, For instance, the Legislature has
adopted and implemented over the years retirement programs and today,
as I understand it, under decisions from.the Supreme Court we have an
otlgation to school teachers and to county and state officers and
employees in excess of $500 million for which no provision has been
made. We are operating that program on a pay-as-you-use. as it were.
basis, and the Legislature year after year has endorsed this tremen-
dous obligation in that fashion. we one these teachers that money
now, but we have said we will wait until the obligation matures until
we take from the taxpayers the money to meet the obligation. Now.
lets keep in mind when we go through all this controversy about
revenue financing that Florida has been involved in revenue financing
for a long time and on a very large scale, which is not to say that it
is good or it's bad but is to point up that it is more expensive than
Just the obligations of the Sunshine Skyvsy or the Florida Turnpike or
the Bucaneer Trail or something of that kind.
PRYE: Governor, what is your -- do you think is the effect on the
morale of the general state employee or these articles about this type
spending at a time when agencies are taking state cars away from
employees?
GOVENOR: I think -- of course, you are assuming facts that I don't
yet know -- but the effect of the articles, I would think, would be
bad. If the data substantiates the articles that's even worse. It
the data doesn't substantiate the articles, then, or course, to some
degree it will be cleared up.
TUT3LZ: Do you think a legislative investigation or the bond program
may in any way Jeopardize your plans for university construction in
that by their very nature they see tending to look at it in some kind
or negative way or crying way?
GOVZRNOR: hell, of course, I am Just one man trying as best I know
how to provide leadership towards meeting what I feel to be critical
needs. I don't have any monopoly of either knowledge or wisdom.ard
certainly I don't have any monopoly of power. I am going to do the
test I can. Now if the Legislature doesnt want to follow that leader-
ship, I'll be sorry. but that's their responsibility, not mine. They
will have to race it, and I am sure they are
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prepared to do so in all good conscience, their own conscience
relative to the results to this state. In my Judgment, if we don't
meet in some fashion the needs for higher education in this state,
particularly at this time, we'll pay a price that will make the
price we will pay by reason of meeting it look miniocule in
comparison.
DELANEY: Governor, have you had a chance to study the Space Era
Education Study enough to comment on it further than you did a
couple or days ago?
GOVERNOR: I have Just studied it quite extensively. I read the
initial task force report. I have read the printed report once,
and I have heard Dr. McDonald explain it twice -- one time spending
almost all day doing it. I think, houever, that until the Board or
Control has completed its considerations and is ready to make specific
recommendations that I had better withhold my own specific comments
about it. Let me say in a general way that I think Dr. McDonald
and Dr. Steven and the other consultant, Dr. Hollis, have done
Florida a tremendous service in this respect, particularly, that they
have for the first time in our history raced us up to the reality of
that is needed in higher education. In the past we have made some
giant strides. I'thinh that it was all that we were ready to make.
but we have said, "oh, there is a tremendous flood or students coming
and, therefore, we had better start a new university at Tampa or a
new university in Palm Beach, without ever saying but when we
have done that, have we really not the need. And the record indicates
now that with the need projected, and somebody made the point to we
last night, with the need proJcoted for 1970 and '80 and the students
are alive today that will be there than - they are not sleams in
somebody's eye or figures on somebodya statistical board -- we have
never before said to meet that full need we will need to do this
complete Job. Now, I doubt seriously that we can at this session of
the Legislature meet the full responsibility, but I think at least
we have gotten from this committee a goal which we cannot deny and
which we can strive to seek to the limit or our ability. The only
quarrel that I think the Legislature is going to have among itself
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is as to the method or raising the funds to meet a minimum
responsibility or this need. It is best to do it by putting a
tremendous load upon the six million people or Florida today'in the
way or current taxes to make capital outlay investments for the
future, or it is better to spread a part of that load out over an
increasing population enjoying an increased level or personal
income over a period or years coincident to a degree with the period
of enjoyment of the facilities, the product of the investment?
New this is the reel decision it seems to me that we will be talking
about. I don't believe that there will be any legislator who will not
say that we ought to move forward to do it.
DELANEY: Do you think the idea of removing, as it was put in the
space education study, removing the higher education system from
politics will be approved with enthusiasm?
GOVERNOR: Well, now, first or all, let me quarrel with the use or
terms a little bit. not yours.
DBLANEY: These are Dr. McDonald's.
GOVERNOR: Right. I say not yOurs. When people talk about
removing something from politics what they really mean is removing
it from the control of the electorate, to the degree that that is
accomplished. Now, Dr. McDonald wanted to remove from politics by
making the terms of Board or Control members a great deal longer
than they are now. The experience with this in other states has
been good in that it has prevented the appointing authority from
coming in and, perhaps without sufficient Judgment or knowledge,
upsetting an established and Justified course of conduct on the part
of the Board of Control. Whether this appointive authority is
the Governor or the Board of Education has nothing to do with
removing it from politics. 0r whether it is the Board of Control
or the.Board of Education has nothing to do with removing it from
politics. It's politics either way. The question to be resolved by
the people in that regard is this: Is a governor more responsive
and is his platform more eXpreasive or the-desires and needs of
the people than are the platforms of the long tenure cabinet
officials who frequently are elected with.upecific reference to
other duties such as agriculture, fiscal affairs, insurance, etc.
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TUTTLE: States which have adopted this program we now look to,
such as California, have some or the foremost higher education in
the country. so how do you get around that?
GOVBBOR: I don't get around that. Of course, we have several little
questions we are tying up here in one hell or was. California made
its great stride by striking at the opportune moment. It leaped to
grab opportunity when it appeared. i think this is Florida's hour.
California's development by reason or many factors preceded ours
by 15-18 years, but we are now traversing more or less the same
pattern that California has done in the past. And I think it is
important that we grab the opportunity in our day that California
grabbed in its hour or opportunity. And I think if we do that, that
we will realise in degree the same result they did.
DELANEY: Did you read this report the other day, Governor, as
saying in effect that it wes.Dr. McDonald's and the other consultants
recommendation that the state should appropriate funds and that the
Board or Control should have complete control over the dissemination
of those funds except for regular auditing processes?
GOVERNOR: Yes. What Dr. McDonald said was that the Legislature
should determine the level of support for its university system which
it desires to achieve, and appropriate that money to the Board or
Control, when then has the discretion to distribute the money as it
was advised among the universities and the various programs or the
university educational system.
DELANEY: Well, do you think this is a good idea?
GOVENOR: Hell, I don't think for Florida at the moment it is
attainable. I think we've got some preliminary reorganizational steps
that we've got to take before we can approach that goal. I'm not
sure that that is a good thing to do. I recognise that the result
would be a greater freedom for the university people to operate and
to achieve goals with which they are familiar and about which they
are capable of making Judgments therefor than is, let's say, the
Governor and the Legislature. On the other hand, when you take this
away from the Legislature and the administration, you do lose certain
democratic values which historically we have clung to. The question is.
is our evolving need in higher education of such a nature that we are
Now
ready to pay this price to achieve that goal./ I don't think I would he
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willing to go as far as Dr. thonsld and the other consultants
-advised. I do agree that we have got to make strides. It is
interesting, though, when you come down to specifies the only
specific that Dr- McDonald mentibned was the limitation on salaries.
and right now it is a cumbersome thing. let's say you ve got a
professor you want to employ for 11,000 Well, almost all
professors today-ofull professors-~sre in that category and you
have to start off, I suppose, with the dean or the department
head and then come up to the dean and then go to the dean of
academic affairs and than to the president and then through their
fiscal officer and then up to the Board or Control and then up
to the Budget Commission and then back to the Board or Control
and so on. This is s cumhersome process and needs to be stream-
lined at a minimum But this is the only thing that Dr. McDonald
pointed out as necessitating this release. Now I think that
erteinly and without argument this minimum 10,000 ought to be
raised I don't think it is realistic today. I think $15 000
is.a minimum realistic fund above which these various statistical
authorities should have the power to review.
BRADFORD: Just in the university system or for all --
GOVERNOR: Just in the university system Let's face it we've
got a competitive market in protessorisl products that we have
to face. And we are bidding For people and brains and trying to
buy them with money and with a climate that makes them want to
come here. And we have to race the market situation.
FYs: Do you think the distribution or funds among universities
should be a political decision?
OOVSRNOR: Do you mean should it be determined by the people?
FRYE: Well, I mean in the Legislature new. isn't some or it as
to which university gets what money based on same politics in
the State Legislature. and back scratching?
GOVERNOR: in the sense that the members of the legislature are
each trying to please their constituents. yes. But then. Legis-
latures are supposed to please constituents to some degree
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this is democracy.
PEYE: Yes, but this is a university system, an educational system we
are dealing with, should it be put on the same basis as other govern-
mental operations?
GOVERNOR: well, I went into a moment ago -o there is a balance of
considerations. The question is now to what degree do we want to
give up the voice or the people in the Legislature and take on the
voice of wisdom or experience or professional knowledge not in the
Legislature.
BRADFORD: Governor, isn't the distribution or university money also
based to a degree on the politicking among the universities themselves?
oovsauos: No question about that. When you use politieking in the
term or people getting together and on whatever basis reaching an
agreement about the resolution or differences, this is politicking.
But I don't want you to use politioking with respect to this in the
sense of where these politicians over here handle it and they are not
worrying about the people's rights, and so forth. Actually, they
are trying to voice true polities; what they understand to be the
people's wishes. Now, to the degree that they fail to be statesmen
this is bad. But I think.tnat particularly some of these representa-
tives from university towns are as great statesmen as we have in the
Legislature and they are able to see beyond their university and
beyond their county to the whole state need.
ERIE: The people don't really know that the tremendously complicated
field of locating a university is not comparable to locating a prison,
or allocating funds for it. I mean, it's/zompletoly different opera
tion?
GOVERNOR: You are right. The bigger government becomes the more
difficult it is for the democratic process to properly operate.
THURSTON: Granting that politics is not necessarily evil, but is it
necessarily desirable for members of the Legislature to become
involved in the actual operation of an individual institution?
GOVERNOR: I want to respond to your promise first or all. when
you say "granting that politics is not necessarily evil," you are
grudgingly conceding that democracy is not necessarily evil.
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opposed to a democracy. But from a practical standpoint isn't it
true that these legislators are influenced by several hundred
lobbyists on many issues and are not necessarily responsive to the
people?
GOVERNOR: Sure. They are influenced by their own backgrounds, their
own funds of knowledge, newspapers, television stations, folks back
home, lobbyists, all of these things.
FREE: vocal minority.
GOVERNOR: Vocal minorities and letters that come up from organized
groups. All of these things so into the compound, and it is not
perfect.
ERIE: But you think that it is best for Florida right now?
ocvassoa: Democracy? (laughter) Yes, 1'11 take that stand even
if it defeats me at the next election. (laughter)
FRYE: No, the continuing political control of the university system?
GOVERhOR: Ho, that we have got to modify. I said I was in favor
of granting to the Board of Control broad discretion in the
functioning of the university system. I didn't think we were ready
at this time to go as far as Dr. McDonald and the other educators
recommended in the reorganisation of our system. I think that Dr.
McDonald recognized this and suggested.thst the Legislature establish
a special committee to consider over the next two years how Florida
wants to move in this direction.
TURNER: Governor, I would like to change the subject for e moment.
Dada County is going to hold hearings on the continued rise in anti-
Cubsn feeling down there. I think the federal government is going
to hold similar hearings at a later date. would you comment on
this please, sir?
GOVERNOR: No. First of all, they are going to hold a hearing on
the continuing rise of anti-Cuban feeling there?
TURHBR: The rising anti-Cuban feeling in the Dede County area.
GOVERNOR: Is the hearing designed to find out if it is rising?
TURNER: It is constantly rising and they are going to look into
reasons for it ~-
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GOVERNOR: The reeaon for it end what points 0! friction there are
and possible cures for it I think this would he a fine thing to do.
How I don't think -- I so not familiar with the investigation If
they are Just going to try to find out it there ere problems
there. I can tell them and save an investigation But it they are
going into the reasons for it and the possible methods or removing
those reasons, I think-it is c tine thing to do.
TDTTLE: Are you aware of former Governor Collins idea?
GOVERNOR: I read about that.
TUTTLs: what is your reaction to that.
GOthhOR: Fine. it two things -- we avoided in this country. since
the war st least. forcing people to move erbund into compounds and
we dont want to be involved in anything like that. However, so
to the degree that we could secure the removal or Cubans to a
climate and society union is more like their own perhaps than the
one in thich they have been Ly circumstances forced to live. it
would be e good thing to do. I think there is merit in his proposal-
but the proLlems of implementing it ere again another matter.
ThURSTO: Governor, you urote a letter to Mallory horns and Wilson
Carreucy in which you referred to the milk controls situation as
being cheotic and the letter said in pert I an opposed to having
price controls extended. Resistance to price controls is-very'otrong
but some change must he cede You didn't suggest in the letter
what changes you thought should be made. I wonder it you have any
considered changes in mind
GOVERNOR: Of course. 1 suggested to the Milk Commission that they
soolish price controls. Three or my appointees voted to do that.
They were not successful. however. they didn't got four votes which
was renuired. I believe that our present operating situation is
bed and that it must be changed. I can't persuade the dominion to
move in one direction. I personally em unwilling to move in the
ether direction and I reel]; am looking for help from the Logic-
lature I any to the legislature that we ve got to move or! the
position which 4e now stand. and i would like help and direction
TBURSTON: would you favor abolishing the Commission
GOVERNOR: I am not sure what all the implications of that are. I
think we do need to insure that health standards and cleanliness
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standards. which were the original reasons for the establishment
of the Commission. are maintained. This might be done through the
Beard of Health independent of the Commission. Frankly from what
I know, abolition of the Commission would not give me any qualms
at all.
THURSTON: It hen been suggested that the regulatory powers of the
Commission be transferred to the Department of Agriculture and
patterned after the Federal ayatem of a milk pool. would you regard
that as a deeiratle solution:
GOVERNOR: You mean for us to get out and let the Federal Government
take it9
THURSTON: No. For us to abolish the Commieaion and tranofer moot
of its powers to our Department of ngrioulture and pattern that
nontrol system after the Paderal pattern
ooveauon: I don't know enough about it. I have talked with members
of the Commission, present and past. and here are dedicated.
intelligent people properly motivated. each of them reaching
relatively different conclusions on the heel: of the name date.
And I don't have any fixed conclusions as to a regulatory system
which would solve this rather difficult problem.
LEWIS: Governor. I have got a very partisan question I want to
talk about Just one moment. that is the Democratic primary that has
Just been completed. I see where the Republicans say that they are
going to put forth a great effort to collect members of the Legio-
lature in the next two weeks. N111 the Democrats put forth any
ohallenge along that line?
GGVERNOR: I certainly hope that the Democratic Organization --
the Democratic Party o- will make a maximum effort to increase its
strength in the Legislature of Florida and I will encourage and
assist to the degree that I am able to do so toward that goal.
LEWIS: Are you happy utththe Democrats that were elected and
chosen ty the people?
GOVERNOR: Hell. I am always happy to abide by the decisions of
the people (laughter)
SHOWERMN: Governor. when you said that you were for Democracy
whether it defeated you in the next election or not. what election
were you referring to (laughter)
2-
Under a procedure that was set up about -- anyway a year ago, perhaps
longer than that, although there had been reports before that --
each month there is made to me a report by the heads of each or the
divisions of the Turnpike Authority. A report is made by Mr. K. E.
Lewis of the construction progress and problems; by Mr. T. M. Ervin
or the right-of-way problems and progress; by Mr. Gardner now on
the status or the legal status or the Authority; by the head
or the Highway Patrol: by the head or the operating division; each
or the divisions of the Authority make a report on their activities
and their status at the time of the report. In addition to that,
the CPA firm of Ernst and Ernst conducts an annual audit, which I
presume it was doing before this administration took over. I know
that it has been since we took over. Their last report was December
31, 1962, that is as or that date, which was delivered to my office
sometime in February. And that audit, or course, is a report or the
fiscal activities of the Authority.
BRADFORD: Was there anything in that latest report that disturbed
you?
GOVERNOR: No, there was not. ow, the report, however, for Ernst
and Ernst is not the same kind or report really that a state auditor
makes. I had reviewed that report before this controversy came up,
as I do all these reports as they come in. Incidentally, I will be
glad for you to see those reports. They do not indicate in any
instance that there is anything wrong with the operation or the
Turnpike. As a matter of fact, these reports, plus the conferences
that I have had with hr. Lewis, Mr. Peterson, hr. hammer, hr.
Gardner, Mr. Boyle, and others in the Turnpike Authority, indicate
that the progress of the construction is going ahead at an excellent
pace, that it will be completed ahead or time, that the operations
of the Authority are well within its budget -- below its budgeted
expenditures -- and that the state is getting value for the operation
of the Authority.
BRADFORD: Well, does that type of audit go in detail into such
things as personal expenses?
GOVERNOR: Nb, it does not.
BRADFORD: It is more confined to the actual Turnpike construction?
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OOVERHOR: I kind or thought that we: going to face me again.
(laughter) Actually. I we; uaing a figure or speech. I was quoting
a Florida Congressmen who reputedly and on the rloor of Congress
oome years ago when called upon to vote upon e veterans bill -o a
till giving benefits to veterans -- said, I am going to vote for the
veterans it it defects me in the next election.r (laughter) I we:
sort of paraphrasing his remarks.
THURSTON: Do you think the Democrat majority in the Legislature is
in danger of being wiped out? (laughter')
caveman: Ro, sir I dont. (laughter)
R. STARR: Governor have you.had.any comment back from the Cabinet
statement Tuesday that we should have a quick end to this Florida
East Coast Railroad strike?
GOVERNOR: No.
If you are about finished. let we conclude with reference again
to the TUrnpike situation. which. or course. is a matter of great
concern to all of no.
I TRIM! THAT 11' I3 CSSENTIAL TRAT m FACTS BB r-CCUMULATED.
PUBLISRED AND 08013st REACHRD ON TBS BASIS OF TROSJ FACTS. TO
THE EXTENT THAT THEY SUBSTRNTIATB ANY ALLEOATIORS THAT HAVE BEEN
MADE, WIAL ACTION Is CALLED FOR. 10 THE mm THAT T3033
ILLEOATIORS ARE NOT SUBSTANTIATED OR ARK PROVEN TO BE WRONG. "I:
REED TO READJUST ANY THINKING RELATIVE TO THEN. THE TURNPIKE
AUTORITY 3A3 BEEN DOIRO A GOOD JOB BUILDING THE TURNPIKS, WHICH
IS ITS PRINCIPAL FUNCTION. THE INVESTMENT OF ITS NOBIlS HRS
PROUJCED amass FAR BEYOND WAT HA5 ORICIRALLY NlICIPATSD. was
SCHEDULE 0? CONSTRUCTION 8A8 ADVANCED BEYOND WHAT WAS ANTICIPOTED.
THE QUALITY OF THE CONSTRUCTION IS GOING TO 83 PLEASINO TO THE
PEOPLE OF FIORIDR. I? T8388 ARE IMPROPBIETIBS, THEYMUST 83
CORRECTED. IF THERE ARE NOT, WE SHOULD NOT ERIMROER PUBLIC
CONFIDERCE IR A WOREHY PROJECT BY LEAPINO TD CORCLUSIONS.
FRYE: no you have full confidence in Rr. Henner
GOVERNOR: Yea.
Are there other questions?
TUTTLE: Thank you. Governor
GOVERNOR: Thank you.
3-
OOVERNOR: No. It is really directed from the standpoint of the
bond-holders. This audit is a requirement of the indenture, and
it is an audit which is designed to assure the bond-holders that
their money is being handled in such a way that they need not tear
for its security. New that is really the purpose of that audit,
and it is because of the nature or the audit that I thought it
necessary under these circumstances to ask for the state audit
because the state audit goes, as you know, into detail or the
operation of the Authority. I will say -- I have not, or course,
yet had a report from the auditors, but when that report is
available it will, of course, be a complete public record as are
all state audits. And it will be the first comprehensive factual
data of its kind as have or the operation or the Authority.
TUTTLE: Don't you think there is a lack there then? Most other
state agencies have these detailed audits?
GOVERNOR: I do, and I am convinced that the Turnpike Authority
ought not to be different in the operation, relative to the
activities of its officials, than any other state agency. I think
that this was an initial mistake and if I had thought about it in
'61, if I had been conscious or it to tell you the truth, I would
have recommended legislative changes then. I wasn't conscious
or it, I didn't and I am going to recommend that it be changed at
this time.
DELANEY: Is it correct, Governor, that the Turnpike Authority
people are not governed by the same limitations on the per diem
allowances?
GOVERNOR: It is.
DBLAHEY: Don't you think this should be corrected so that they are
on the same level with all other state agencies?
GOVERNOR: I think they ought to be identically on the same basis
with all other state agencies. I don't see any reason. "on, or
course, there is the real problem that in the initial stages of s
turnpike operation and in the crash stages of that Operation -- and
all these programs are crash programs, because the more rapidly you
can get into operation the sooner you can be deriving the revenues
which will meet your obligations and pay off the bonds and tree the
road -- and, therefore, every day you save is worth literally
thousands of dollars. For this reason, it does need to be a crash
a.
program. On the other hand, I do feel that this is not a sufficient
reason for making a basic distinction in the oprstion of this
agency from other agencies.
9818: were you aware of the extent of Mr. Runner's expenses?
GOVERNOR: I was not and am not yet. How, I want to say this about
this allegation of Mr. hammer's expenses: for instance, the firrt
article that_I saw relative to a hill in some hotel in New York.
I think it was that and some odd dollars. It was reported in the
Paper that this was Mr. Hemwor's expense. or course, when I called
him we discussed this particular matter and what's the story. And
this is the story: first of all, this was not Mr. hammer's
expense. Ibis was his expense and that of another member of the
Authority. They had two bedrooms and s parlor, which was their
office during a critical period as I understand it of the
turnpike operations. Furthermore, and although the reported
allegedly knew this and was shown the facts, he did not report it. A
reimbursement was made at that time of a considerable portion of
those expenseo. Mr. and re. hammer and Mr. and Mrs. Barnes were
there and it is my understanding that the bills were divided .- the
food bill, the tips, the various other aspects of the operation.
except for the parlor which was used for an office -- and these were
paid from the personal funds of the individuals into the coffers
of the Turnpike Authority to reimburse for the espouses apparently
incurred at that time. If the audit establishes these to be the
facts, than there has been, in my opinion, a significant misrepresent-
ation of the facts and I am advised, without knowing personally, that
the particular reporter was told these facts and declined to express
them in his article. This, of course, is something that will be
developed at a later date.
D. STARR: how about the gasoline, Governor, and automobile vouchers
for December, which were pictured, do you have any comment on that?
GOVERNOR: I think that -- I dont know the details or that. that
did it say particularly?
D, STARR: Well, I got the drift of it that he applied for 10 cents
a mile and used state gasoline at the same time?
5~
GOVERNOR: Hell, I don't know about this -- whether this is true or
not. If it is true, I think it is improper. I don't think it is
illegal in all probability in the turnpike operation, but I think
as a matter or practice they ought to stick to the 10 cents a mile
all the way down the line.
TvTTLE: Why should he have the state supplied Buick :- the state
purchased Buick -- and in addition there to this Chrysler?
GOVERNOR: Ought not to. I think that is a mistake of Judgment at
the least. however, let me say this: That was a real quick answer.
Actually, I don't know what utilization was being made or the
Buick automobile. If Mr. Hammer wanted to have an automobile of Lie
own and charge for its use and it was used in connection with Turn-
pike business, this is perfectly all right. Now what use it was
being used for, whether there was any duplication, I don't know those
facts. And I think that nothing is going to be able to settle that
question but an audit or the operation of the Authority. Mr. hammer
has assured me he has his own people working on these various
allegations now and that he will be here in this office with a
complete and satisfactory explanation. I want to say this, that in
my Judgment, again from reading the newspaper, this matter is going
to be resolved at least in port in the litigation between Mr. Hammer
and the neuspaper involved and I will he very happy to see it
resolved.
TUTTLE: How could he put 33,000 miles on that vehicle in one year
and fly the Aero Cowmander 614 hours?
GOVERNOR: I dont lmow.
TUTTLE: It seems like he uould have to be in the car eight hours
a day at that rate.
GOVERNOR: Well, I think the records -- I dont know, I assume the
speedometer shows the mileage. If it travelled that far, it may be
evidence that he is working a lot harder than you thought he was.
TUTTLE: well, why is this vehicle suddenly up for sale? Have you
discussed that with him!
BOVEROR: No, I did not discuss the sale or the vehicle with him.
I suspect that when he saw it was a point of controversy -- if it is
up for sale and he hasn't told me this, is it up for sale?
-6-
A. WALDRON: It is sold.
GOVERNOR: It is sold. I suspect that when it became a point of con-
troversy, he would Just rather get rid of it and forgot about it. I
don't know that though.
FRYE: what about the airplane business with the Pincllas County Cir-
cuit Judge?
GOVERNOR: What about it?
FREE: The way that was handled? Apparently there was no -- the way
I got the impression -- there was no agreement, no signed, it was
sort of a verbal agreement?
A. WALDRON: The bills were typed up in the Turnpike Authority.
GOVERNOR: I will have to wait on Mr. Hammer's.answer to this. I want
to impress upon you that it's too early for me, and I think its too
early for you, to reach an administrative-like Judgment on this
operation. I know that the Turnpike is going ahead at a rapid and
effective rate. I know this from my monthly reports. I know it from
my visial, frequent inspections. I know, as well as you can know any
of these things, not only from hr. Hammer but fron.the construction
people, Mr. Lewis and others, that it is going to be built within the
funds available. that it's going to be a finer facility in quality
than the one that was built from Miami to Fort Pierce and that Florida
is going to have a facility of which it has every reason to be proud.
Now. that does not reflect in any way upon these various items that
have been pictured in the press. Those must be answered. But what I
am saying to you is that a good Job is being done and if there are
improprieties in connection with the doing of that Job, these must be
corrected or remedied in whatever way the evidence indicates but
until we have got some factual data to go on it is simply too early
to reach a Judgment.
TUTTIB: Governor, before we leave the details of this in some of
these articles there was also reference to $65 worth of orchids. Can
you in any way in your mind establish a reason for that?
GOVERNOR: I understand that there was a reimbursement in connection
with the orchids. Now, I can't give you the exact figures on that
-7-
but this is my understanding.
TUTTLE: Well, what was the basis for them being purchased out of
Turnpike funds originally even it there was s reimbursement?
GOVERNOR: I don't know.
ERIE: This use secretaries or state officials?
GOVERNOR: Yes.
FRIE: what was the occasion for that?
GOVERROR: I don't know. I am sure they s11 enJoyed them, but I here
not found it necessary --
P328: I haven't noticed your secretary wearing orchids.
GOVERNOR: I am simply not prepared to answer that.
FRYE: Governor, do you think this is a matter or policy, this practice
01 spending turnpike funds and all this reimbursement back and forth
for personal bills?
GOVERNOR: It is not a good way to handle, no. ms'nm. That is not
the way to handle it. Even if every cent has been reimbursed, that
is not the way to handle it. However, there is quite a difference
between a disagreement over a method of operation where the state,
it that's a fact, does not suffer and a disagreement over an operation
where the state does suffer.
MORRIS: Governor, of course this is s quibble, but since you said the
state did not suffer, I noticed that the state sales tax was stricken
from the orchid bill and it was not paid.
GOVERNOR: It should have been paid.
MORRIS: There would be no mechanics for making that up on the
reimbursement?
GOVERHOR: ho, it should have been paid. There is no question about
it.
TUHTIE: Governor, isn't there also a tendency to appsrently leg on
this reimbursement since the day after the Times article appeared
the Turnpike Authority suddenly had all these back payments?
GOVERNOR: Well, let me say this. These reimbursements about nhich I
have been speaking to you so far and about which I was told on the
initial day of this matter were ones that have been made months ago,
that were not made pursuant to this investigation. however, we have a
little rule of thumb that we follow in the office here in that we try
to get all of our people in a very wide spread operation to follow.
Whenever we discover something is wrong, whether it is pointed out to
.8-
us by a friend or enemy or whether we find it ourselves, our first
rule is if you are wrong, get right. And on that first day without
knowing what was coming or any of the details of the reimbursement
which Mr. Hammer himself didn't have at that time. I said to him and
he agreed. "Check back on this thing, and any place you are wrong, if
you are, get right." And that I am sure is the instance for the
reimbursements or other activities which I have read about as occurring.
And I think that should be done in any situation.
TUTTLE: Has he offered his resignation?
GOVERNOR: Ho.
TUEGIE: Or have you discussed it with him at any time?
GOVERNOR: The matter has come up from time to time. I have not asked
for his resignation, he has not offered his resignation.
TVTTLE: But, it has come up since these articles started appearing?
00?;ad0h: Right. In all the general conversations concerning it,
yes.
D. STARR: Do yon plan to replace him?
OG?ERNOR: I have no plans relative to any administrative action until
I know the facts in the situation.
DELAHEY: Governor, in a situation such as the one you.described a-
while ago where Hr. Hammer and hr. Barnes, I believe. were in New York
and had their respective wives with them, what would be the proper
way to handle this 9
GOVERNOR: Hell, I will tell you how I think they handled it. well,
they should have divided it in all probability for appearances sake,
at least. because in operating a public trust it is not only neces-
sary that you avoid doing wrong, it is important that you avoid the
appearance of doing wrong because you can do damage to public confi-
dence with the appearance of doing wrong even if you are not doing
wrong. I think the way it ought to have been handled would have been
for this bill to have been divided at that time and they would have
paid by their personal check the amount that they personally were
liable and have the rest of it billed to the Turnpike Authority. I
suspect. however. that leaving the hotel, probably in the morning. to
get from the bookkeeper the detailed division and so forth. it was a
lot simpler to say send us a bill and we will pay the thing out down
at our office When we have a.ohance to divide it. I suspect that is
what happened.
-9-
DELANEY: Is it your understanding that they made that reimbursement
back at that time?
GOVERNOR: Yes, that's my understanding. As a matter of fact, I am
advised that they have cancelled checks back from that time, estab-
lishing that and that these facts were made available to the reporter
at the time he found the item itself.
FRYE: Doesn't the information about the double billing at the hell}.
wood Hotel indicate that this type of an operation is sloppy and that
you don't know what the state might be losing or not losing? It
looks like the type of thing you couldnt check on.
GOVERNOR: It is the type of thing that ought to be handled uith a
great deal more care and precision than has been done, at the least.
R. STARR: Governor. on another road subject -- Congressman Cramar
has urged you to complete 1-95. Do you have any further comment on
that?
GOVERNOR: Well, I will be glad to do it if he will secure the
passage or legislation which will give us all the funds that we are
due up until 1972, in the year 1963-6. I didn't pass the federal
legislation which was passed in a Republican administration spreading
this program out over the years ending 1972, but if he and the other
Republicans will accomplish that purpose we will be glad to build it
all now.
TURTLE: Governor, not to belabor this point, but what is your reaction
to Representative Fred Karl's and Senator John sthewa' suggestion of
an investigation of all these bond programs by the legislature?
GOVERNOR: I think the legislature has a complete right, if not a duty,
to make any investigation it deems desirable to inform itself in any
way that it needs to for the preparation of legislation to accomplish
the purposes which it feels is in the good of the state. Now, I read
rather hastily, I admit, the story about Mr. Karl's statement yester-
day in this morning's paper -- I had guests for breakfast and didn't
get to read the paper as carefully as I normally like to do ~- but I
think when we are investigating this whole revenue financing program
which is a fine thing and the Legislature can well be informed, we
ought to keep in mind that the obligations that the state commits it-
self to and the Legislature commits itself to are not Just those repre-
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n -;d-hold:-:r .Thi:: nud: t to :1 Moul versat of 1.i-:e a redeti: .a : ed .1-. :-, -l'.tli 3:: d' -1;-.12-0 tG :-c;:-:-P-: t~11-? b-2-:id-it!~,1d--'!'s I. -1.23 "y j.3 6-:10:" l'E:dl --d in 3 dell :-t 'r:ay IBRU Cl~ P'/ rad :1: E .6 en security. U:>1-r that le really the purpore of that r...icUt -.t is 1: -c.1ar.r=: rJ the reture of the aMit tMt I thmi f. Li -:Espy harder ta;e circu::.pteen to an for :lle statt: nul.1: use tW ";tates feud-jt gees, as gott knog, jjito detail el ttir: tien e:/ the /,shr.rity. I ::lla 1:rty -I trie not, er cour -t .:1 a reptet fres tu c-udleers, buc Chat thrit report in -1:1ble it will, of cource, be a cm.jplete public reeerd re am et'iv: 'tu tr ..'ed li: =111 M thie s'irst ec-gr:Terive l'.'m---.of it -Kimi u-:-: N:tve e-f the oi+1mtsc=n of EM Au ci'li; T Et Don r a you t h1r:k them is a 1::Mi-: there then? N-: e t 01.37-:9-.no ia i. I':-Que dirt:aled ciudit:s? i: I do, and I at:t een':iaegd 0:st the Turilpin M.th..011 ht ot: m a tilN'im.mt ir. the rter:1'-lors relat ive -16;: ci 10:; r:sfi'lei:a:;, 1. Be:: :.y 0: n.::2 :: Li".t..: 2:a : a n:1:1 1:e -: an init ir,1 :-:ic.t:tko tinti i ? I Md En:-sce:h I -I i'.7.:l 1--Gei'. 1:0::2012-.33 Of 1.5 m (12:11 ~;:~2-u th::I ru --eti:c.=rded 1:?i=lalative eben;;es t be;;i, I ':.0:10.'00:en -. did:1' t and I ::s 62:16 to rec-^-1::.-.r:=31d -a/!i it be c in -:1 :C it (''-:lt'or'i:. UOi:c-Pi:OT', th:^tT, '.ile Cul'jijille:: A-. -.: ret :y:a:er!ied 5:: t!..: a:=.:. e 111:str:'lio.-:-ca; i.h---.. I Y :' t yDJ ti.i..k als ::hould 130 3:=rrt:ci:e:3 .. ii.:: 5: --mie level 1:it:1 el i -: Clier M-ita ".r:no 2::'? G i I tjiink thr:y esugnt to be ident ic:dly r:a che ca.. : 1:::::.. .12. ell o! :12at;.ite nge:nc 3 es;. I do:11 t see any re:i:leia, ''o -. 2, that's in tim coal proble:n that la the in-l:1=il m,.:-:s 0 .mpike cperation :md Iri the craoh st:Fices of that oper:!tio:1 -.2 1 VM::e :rogres:.r. ;.re creen prora;:ia, bec:n:st-: 1,iin r:oru ?,:0::161 :n:: act 1;ite aj;eest.Mi the soorun' you min i i di-;rivia tM FM:: :=..--"I e :.:b i:lli 1..ec11yns;r 0.01.[(-;10 10:1:1 ::ad flay --fr i.':ir: lo:-lida :::-..3 0:.'..:e 1. e .:;r:! ---::a.d, i:n--arom e-;ery d":y 3:r:m ::::tve: is vc ri i lives: i l' "is :--.:::GE::1:.1 '::f 0011:11-::. F-.'-r til::: PO:It::C:12 it OO-.:-L' O .-:d --"' i--:it :::-":Cr.
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