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en-US P.O. Box 115215, 241 Pugh Hall, University of Florida, Gainesvi lle, FL 32611 5215 (352) 392 7168 www.clas.ufl.edu/history/oral

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Joel Buchanan Archive of African American History: http://ufdc.ufl.edu/ohfb UL 031 Thomas Oxendine Southeastern Indian Oral History Project (SIOHP) Interviewed by Lew Barton on Nov ember 6 , 1974 1 hour , 22 minutes | 3 5 pages Abstract: Mr. Thomas Oxendine, a department head in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, talks about his life —from growing up Lumbee in Robeson County , to serving in World War II, to finding himself in a position of influence in Washington D.C. Mr. Oxendine lists his educa tion and the degrees he obtained, and talks about how war interrupted his education. He began his military service as the first American Indian to go through Navy flight training, and this achievement resulted in him being chosen for special missions. Mr. Oxendine details the importance of sports in his and his children’s lives, and how he supported his home community through athletic instruction. He then goes on to describe what his job entails in the Bureau of Indian Affairs and how Congress has built a r elationship with American Indian groups and modified it for the changing social climate in the U nited States. Keywords: [ Lumbee Tribe of North Carolina ; Washington (D.C.) ; Military participation; Politics and government] Samuel Proctor Oral History Program College of Liberal Arts and Sciences Program Director: Dr. Paul Ortiz 241 Pugh Hall PO Box 115215 Gainesville, FL 32611 (352) 392-7168 https://oral.history.ufl.edu

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UL 031 Interviewee: Thomas Oxendine Interviewer: Lew Barton Date: November 6 , 19 74 B: Thi s is November 6, 1974. I ’ m Lew Barton recording for the University of Florida ’ s History Department, American Indian Oral History program. This morning, we are favored to be in Washington D.C. in the office of the Department of the Interior. And with me, and kindly consenting to give us an interview , is Mr. Thomas Oxendine, who is head of the Department of Information, Bureau of Indian Affairs —and of cour se, the Bureau of Indian Affairs is a part of the United State s Department of the Interior. Is that right, Mr. Oxendine? O: That is correct, it ’ s a real pleasure, Lew. B: Oh, you are so gracious to give us this interview, and I ’ ve been looking forward to it, and we want you to tell us all about yourself in your own sort of way or any kinds of comments that you would like to make in your own way. And I ’ ll just sit here and mostly listen because you know you and I are both pretty good talkers . [Laughter] O: Well, it ’ s a real pleasure, as I said. Probably a little background that I might add is, first , I am a Lumbee Indian from North Carolina. I was born i n December 23, 1922. Son of Thomas H. and Georgia R. Maynor . My father was a schoolteacher and was born in a small Indian village about two miles west of Pembroke, which is kind of the center of Lumbee affairs in that part as you are well aware. I first started school in a little small tworoom school in Hokes , which is about in the area where I was born, in which I started to school when I was five. Having, as I said, been the oldest of eight children, I could read and write before I started to school. And since the teacher had three grades in the one room, I could read the

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 2 secondgrade books, so it wasn ’ t very long in that first year that I got elevated to the second grade, and consequently when I was — B: I always considered you to be a brain. O: No, I wouldn’ t say that, but I just got an early start, and wound up at six years of age in the third grade. A nd so, we only had eleven grades in school in those days, but I finally graduated at the age of fifteen from Cherokee Indian Normal High School over there in Pembroke. From there, I continued my schooling at Cherokee Indian Normal College up until — as that school progressed, I was in my fourth year when the World War II came along, and I immediately enlisted into the Navy . But while at Pembroke, as you are quite familiar Lew, you and I attended many courses together, and I remember well — B: Very enjoyable ones. O: And I remember well in our days in journalism, although you pursued that and I went elsewhere, but the last twelve years , though, I have moved back into public affairs , the last eight years , of course, in the Navy . But kind of just sketching out where I ’ ve been since we were together. I , of course, in 1942, as World War — well, let me back up a little. I did the normal kind of pursuits at Pembroke. Going through seeking a Bachelor of Arts in the liberal arts side of teaching, and that ’ s what I was pursuing. I participated in all the athletic programs at Pembroke— B: Right, you’ ve always been a great athlete. O: Well, I was fortunate enough to make the teams in each of the sports, and I participated in al l of those normally. I participated in the class activities that were normally done. And I know that I enjoyed very much, and I have very fond

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 3 memories, of my days at Pembroke. But the next event, as I said—in 1942, the war broke out . I had prior taken fli ght training at Pembroke in an academic course that was run through a civilian pilot training course at Lumberton, which was about eight miles away, and I obtained a private license under a program there. And then of course the war came along, and I spent the World War II — well, let me back up again. I entered into the Navy , or sought to enlist into the Navy , and found that the Navy only accepted Caucasians, and I had a little problem there for a while until I got a ruling out of Washington, and of course I then received extensive press coverage as the first American Indian to go through Navy flight training. B: Hey, t hat ’ s great. How about the first American Indian to enter the Navy ? O: Well, I don’ t know about that part, but I was the first to enter Navy flight training, and I was commissioned an e nsign at the completion of that course in December of 1942. I enlisted in the Navy in January , and after clearing the hurdles that were there mainly because of the policies of government dealing with segregation, when that was cleared, wh en I was permitted to go through—and had a very enjoyable time going through, and had a—it ’ s just something in flying Lew, if you know — B: You ’ re a great flyer , Tom. O: Well, I don’ t know. It ’ s something that not many people get an opportunity to do, something that they feel that they do well. But this is something that came very easy to me , and I had no particular prior interest in flying. I never built model airplanes or did any of those sort of things . B ut I got an opportunity —as you

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 4 know , it was a volunteer thing and they took ten Indian students. And t his program was kind of designed as a “ p ilot program , ” to teach ten Indians, see how well they ’ d do in flying. And I don’ t know how many people signed up, but they took them based on an academic background, et cetera , and I was one of those people, but right from the— B: You ’ re being modest . [Laughter] O: No, but right from the beginning it ’ s something I could do extremely well, and I never got a damn check. I, you know , entered into the Navy , and went through without any problem whatsoever. I never had any of the normal kind of difficulties that I find out later in, as I taught to people to fly, there’ s just certain people who have a knack of doing, and as I said I had no problem. But I then spent all of World War II, of course in varying capacities in the Navy . I left the Navy in 1947, returned to Pembroke to complete my education. In 1948 I received my Bachelor from Pembroke. And then the fall of [ 19] 48, I matriculated to the University of Southern California, where I majored in physical education. R eturned to Pembroke in [ 19] 50, and reentered to get my teaching credentials, and then the—that was , I ’ m sorry , in the fall of [ 19] 49. And then, in 1950 I join ed the staff at Pembroke High School as the director of athletics, and then was recalled to Korea in April of 1951, and remained in the Navy as a pilot, the last eight years in public affairs. R etired from the Navy in 1970, at which time I joined the Bureau of Indian Affairs in my present capacity , as the public affairs officer for the Bureau of Indian Affairs here in Washington. I have had an extreme variety of assignments, Lew. I would like —

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 5 B: I bet it ’ s been interesting. O: Well, it certainly has. I kind of don’ t know where to hit at any particular areas, but maybe we might talk a little about the role as an Indian in these which is a little bit different than most. And there are some kind of things that are pertinent maybe in that area. Going back a little bit, as I said, I entered in Charlotte, North Carolina at the recruiting there, and they had, as I said, to get a ruling. Because the rules for being an officer in the Navy were that you had to be a Caucasian. Well, that leaves us out , you know. So, I still think it was probably the rules of the B lack W hite thing of which the Indians are kind of caught in the middle— B: In the middle. O: R ight. So, when that was clarified, I then went down to Atlanta, went through elimination flight training. And the first thing, Mr. Ted Mann, who headed the Duke University publicity department , was the public information officer there at Atlanta. O f course, he found out he had an Indian i n, and he did the normal kinds of things of getting a lot of publicity. As you can remember , I received tremendous, all through no particular discrimination, not any that I could see. It was exactly the reverse. B: Maybe it worked as an asset rather than a liability. O: Well, you know one of the things though that was kind of confusing, I of course had read the same books that everyone else does that distorts Indian history completely . B: Right.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 6 O: B ut in entering in the number of people that you met, why they kind of had the romantic side of Indians and pointed out that you certainly must be very proud of your Indian ancestry, et cetera. But then they would relate real quickly to Indian leaders which I only had varying degrees of k nowledge. Naturally Jim Thorpe, big hero among nonIndians. B: Well, you know about him. O: Well of course, he’ s a great, you know , I ’ m a great admirer of him. Crazy Horse, Tecumseh, all of the great Indian leaders were kind of brought up to me as people that I should kind of relate to. But I had problems with that Lew , because they were not necessarily other than known people. The people that I admired were those Lumbees who I could identify with as Indians that were not well known, such as you know Reverend L.W. Moore, who helped get our schools started, Mr. O.R. Sampson. I take great pride in the Lumbee Indians who helped get that thing turned around in 1887 because I know now well the history that dealt in the policies of government that caused a lot of the changes in 1835. W e have a pretty sad history between 1835 and 1887, as you are quite well aware. I t was a case of being caught between, of course, the federal government whose policies were only as a trustee to Indians, and the states who took the point that Indians are the responsibility of the federal government. So, you know, we were caught in the middle of that. And it must have taxed well. The Lumbee Indian leadership at that time, and I really am very proud of their persistence, and really having the view that education is the way, and of finally, and I ’ m sure they had many, many problems in getting it started, but it ’ s now beginning to pay off.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 7 B: Right, exactly. O: As I said , I hope that something can be done to recognize the deep debt of gratitude that Lumbee Indians owe to those people who were able to kind of turn that bad situation around during that period. But their struggles must have been tremendous. B: Oh, yes. They sort of pulled us up by our bootstraps . We had nothing [inaudible 15:36] . O: I’ m sure you have this recorded in other areas, but for those who are not quite familiar with it as I understand it, of course we were Croatans , well identified up through the early part of 1900. A nd then, about 1911 or so, we were made at least Cherokee Indians of Robeson County . T hat ’ s how I entered the Navy , as a Cherokee Indian of Robeson County. The laws pertaining to Indians mainly, partly of it was due to segregation. B: [inaudible 16:15] O: Oh, yeah of course. My birth certificate lists my mother and father as Indians. The law s, I was only permitted, say , to go to Indian schools. There were laws against intermarriage between—I was not eligible to go to a B lack or W hite school, I could only go to the Indian schools. But you know I look back on that at the time , I don’ t think I really had any great interest in going to any of the other schools anyway, ‘ cause I was completely happy in my own environment. We had our own schools, our own churches. I guess maybe that personally I accepted that well, and I think one’ s real ability in life to kind of mesh is that ability to adjust to ever what you have to adjust to, anyway. But I remember my father told me

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 8 once that, you know , you’ re going to—in life , when you leave, and especially from around Pembroke, where we did not have discrimination—certainly in Pembroke, not openly , anyway. B: That was the Lumbee town, our town. O: That ’ s right, that wa s our town. And Uncle Sonny was the mayor, and we had our own chief of police, city council and so forth, but there was none there. It ’ s only when you kind of tended to leave your own area. As long as you kind of stayed in your place, you know, no problem. But he told me that you’ re going to run into problems with certain people, just because you’ re an Indian. But that ’ s kind of based on the fact that they did not like maybe t he Indians they had met or for some reason they ’ ve come up with that. But this system of government, and they won’ t want anything to do with you just because you ’ re an Indian, nothing else. I mean it ’ s not you per se, it ’ s just you ’ re an Indian and they would not care to have anything to do with you. But this system of government also permits him that right to exclude, based on any particular reason he might want. But you can also do the same thing. You can exclude those people that you don’ t, it’ s j ust the way that it is , and I kind of never forgot that. So, I always kind of took the position that people who would not want to have anything to do with me, you know, they have that right. But it ’ s too bad that their communication is such that they have come up with those kinds of views. I have had a very interesting life. B: Oh, you certainly have. [inaudible 19:09] O: I first, as I said went through, getting back a little bit into a time frame in 1942, I went down to Atlanta. Colonel Earl Lowery , who w as at that time over at the

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 9 hospital there was very helpful, also a Lumbee, who had gone to school with my Uncle Clifton , one of the early people who received a master ’ s degree. I ’ m sure you have him on tape —if not , you ought to. But anyway , Co lonel Lowry was very helpful in my adjustment in Atlanta. I then moved down to Jacksonville, Florida where I completed the remaining time to get my commission. I entered into the Navy operational part in what was called VOVCS, scout observation training, flying, and j oined the USS Mobile where I spent the next two years in the Pacific going through some thirty plus fleet engagements in that capacity as a scout observation pilot, submarine search, and went through first battle was at Wake, and I participated in the bombing of that, neutralizing a lot of these areas up through the second battle of the Philippines, where I returned and then went into fighters —a t the later part qualifying in the Native F6F Hellcat. I then became— B: That was one of the great machines . O: That was a fine airplane. And then started flying the Navy ’ s F4U C orsair, became a test pilot in Grovefield , or in Detroit, Michigan, returned to the sea planes for a two year assignment on the USS S aint Paul, which took into the area, and I was head of the St. Paul ’ s aviation detachment. We served over in China. Very interesting tour and the follow up at the end of World War II. We were anchored in the H u angpu River in Shanghai for six months. So, I got to return to a little of my athletic wishes in that I coached the S aint Paul baseball team which won that China district over there. B: Oh, that ’ s great.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 10 O: S o I really had a lot of fond memories about that particular thing. But at that time the Chinese, the Communists would not move into that area because the U.S. was in there at that time, but by then, that ’ s when I left in November of 1947 and returned to Pembroke to enter school , as I ’ ve mentioned before. I ’ d like to just kind of mention a little bit my —one of the real, few of the real highlights I consider in my life. One was my year as a coach there at Pembroke, under Mr. Elmer Lowery who sought in my senior y ear there as I was getting my teaching credentials, asked me if I would be willing to do that. And of course, that ’ s exactly what I wanted to do. I can remember well moving in after Pembroke had had some problems in winning championships over in Magnolia, and Prospect, and Fairmont had kind of dominated that league for quite some time. But I was fortunate enough to have Union Chapel, one of the other high schools, merge with Pembroke the year that I took over. So, I herded a few pretty good ballplayers, and I was the coach of both the girls’ and boys’ basketball teams, and went through and had a great amount of luck in that capacity in that we won, had a season each, the boys and girls having nineteen wins and one loss, and then went through and won the county championship. And the Monday after that, Lew, the Monday after that high school tournament there at Pembroke, after we’ d won on a Saturday night, on Monday morning there was a package of information to return to the Navy for Korea. So, I discussed it, took a leave of absence— B: You were of course i n the naval reserve, right?

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 11 O: I was in the naval reserve, as all people who had been in World War II, there was a commitment to that, and of course that was not an option, it was just that if you had gone through you were—actually when you leave the Navy you released inactive duty. You were still eligible for those assignments. But I went back in and immediately went into jets. And that was a real rewarding experience, and I went through the normal, oh, the USS Midway and three tours over in Europe. In the Mediterranean I served as the Administrative and Operations officer for Command Air Group Six, later becoming the executive officer of Fighter Squadron 21 on the USS Midway. I then was reassigned in 1951 to, as the officer in charge of the Navy ’ s gunnery unit at Pensacola, Florida, where we trained students in basic gunnery at Pensacola there. I ’ m sorry , let me back up. I n 1953 I went to Pensacola, instead of 1951, and served that tour as the CO of the gunnery unit. I then, 1956, met a Navy nurse there at Bar i n Field, and after a short period of time we were married. I got orders in July of [ 19] 56 and moved on to a new assignment as the officer in charge of the Navy ’ s fleet jet training squadron unit at Moff ett Field, California. This was a very interesting assignment in that we taught all of the fleet pilots to sharpen up on their ability to fly in allweather squadrons, these were the jet pilot s who operate on the carrier, had to renew their instrument ratings , et cetera. So, I remained in that until that squadron was absorbed in VF124, and then I moved into the Navy ’ s—became a combat flight ins tructor, and the executive officer of 124, which is a big replacement air group squadron there at Moff ett . I continued to participate in the squadron athletics up through as exec on the basketball team. I was on the

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 12 baseball team , et cetera , continued to do that, and as I had in all of the other squadrons. 1960, I left as executive officer 124 and moved to Pensacola as the commanding officer of the Navy ’ s largest basic training squadron, training squadron two at North Whiting Field at Pensacola. That squadr on had 198 airplanes and had 165 pure flight instructors. I had an administrative staff of about seventeen officers, eight hundred enlisted personnel, and we trained at any one time four to six hundred Navy flight students through transition, precision, ac robatics, basic instruments , and night flying. So that was a tremendous operation that we had going there. In fact , the students for the squadron operated from six o’ clock in the morning until eleven at night, so we had a kind of aroundthe clock, you know with night flying and that kind of operation. But it was one of the real highlights, you know commanding a squadron of that capacity. Now at that point in [ 19] 60 to [ 19] 62, I had that . I n October [ 19 ] 62, I then was offered an assignment as the Deputy Fleet Information Officer on the staff of Commander in Chief of Pacific Fleet. Now , this gets us back to the public information— B: Why this enters another phase of your interest of your life, journalism. O : That ’ s right. Well, you know , I ’ d been sports editor when you were the editor of the college newspaper there. I was on your staff as the sports editor, and even though I had not pursued it a great deal after that, why , I did get a chance to return, and of course accepted that. I moved to Hawaii on the staff and served for three years in that capacity as the Deputy Fleet Information Officer for Pacific Fleet which actually put out all the releases for Pacific Fleet all over the Pacific.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 13 The fleet hometown news , and the news releases, the interviews, the normal guest tours , et cetera. They ’ re a very interesting assignments, not a great deal involved in Indian a ffairs , but a very rewarding assignment. In 1965, when the Navy became involved with the war in Vietnam, I was detached to h e a d the initial information program for the Navy ’ s involvement in the Gulf of Tonkin. So, I was sent out from Hawaii to head that on the USS Independence on the staff of the party of commanders. I operated there during the later part of 1965 to set up that program, and then was assigned to the Office of Information in Washington on the Secretary of the Navy ’ s staff in the O ffice of P lans. I directed the Office of Aviation Plans, that dealing with building of aircraft, the rollouts , the programs involved around anything doing with aviation s and carriers and so forth. I headed that part within the information office of the secretary. I then direct ed the entire office later on. A nd then, in 1968, I was assigned to head the P ublic Affa irs Office for the N aval A ir S ystems C ommand. This was an operation that dealt with all weapon systems that deal with aircraft et cetera. And then I had that for two years here in Washington, had remained since 19—or moved to Washington from Hawaii in 1965. A nd so in 1970, as I ’ m leaving the Navy, I was asked to join the Bureau in this present capacity. S o if you ’ d like we can discuss that , or what have you. B ut of course, I ’ ve been here during the reorganization, the implementation of the self determination policy, I was here. It ’ s kind of strange but two years ago today in this office this was building was completely engulfed with six hundred people who took it over. So, two years ago today this office was —

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 14 B: You really have something to report on. [Laughter] O: Oh, you’ re absolutely right, but I was in and out as the liaison between the Indians who had this building and the government b oth the White House— B: It was the B.I. Takeover of 1972. O: R ight the B.I., 1972, November 2 through 8 and today is the sixth and of course this is one of —I remember that very well. I also, in the capacity, handled the press at Wounded Knee, South Dakota during that takeover. The large number of newsmen who—but that ’ s part of the job that I presently hav e now. So, I am familiar basically with all of those kind of things. I do think I understand the Lumbee history fairly well in its relationship to the government. And I think that if others understood it as well then they can accept B: You ’ d be very happy about it wouldn ’ t you? O: Well, no, I don’ t know that they may be happy. But the thing is —I believe, and I ’ m sure you do, that truth is good no matter what it is. Truth has got to be good, and it ’ s better that we know and seek truth , because you make too many mistakes when you think you’ re dealing with truth and you really aren’ t. B: Y ou didn’ t seem to have this problem that so many of our people have, which is related to exactly what you’ re saying. T hat is an inferiority complex, you know , our people hav e been told that they we re nobody and nothing so long that they have begun to believe this. Y ou can’ t say that about anybody , really, can you? O: Well, you know, again, I kind of was fortunate, Lew. I f it hadn’ t been in the sequence that it was, you know , I would not know. But you know as I said, I was at Pembroke, I was going through pursuing a teaching field. I ’ m not sure that that

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 15 would’ ve been exactly something I would have aspired to at that particular time or not. But the big key , I think —and I ’ ve certainly seen it after I ’ ve come into the B ureau—is that a lot of people don’ t have that opportunity to bridge that gap into the right set of circumstances, and I think I did. B: Somehow you were able to rise above it, you know . O: Well, I think in going from an Indian culture into the mainstream. We have for instance in the Bureau of Indian Affairs —l ast year, I was out on the Navaj o reservation having lunch with retired Chief Justice Lincoln of the Navaj o Supreme Court, and we were discussing Indian affairs. He’ s now retired, he lives back in his hogan under the most primitive ty pe of —but you know, he’ s had the affluence and he’ s gone back to this. But we were discussing the Bureau’ s Employment Assistance Program. This is a relocation program where Indians sign up for various job training, and then they, the bureau, has a program where we train the Indians in a vocation, and then assist them in job placement. Now we were discussing that program, and he said to me, “ Mr. Oxendine, ” he said, “ it ’ s not the eight hours at work in Los Angeles, for instance, as a welder, that defeats our Navajos, that ’ s not what defeats them. ” He says, “ I t ’ s th at other sixteen hours you’ re not training them for. ” And that ’ s exactly what maybe you’ re talking about here, and how do you bridge that and not have it. Well, moving out of Pembroke, and I ’ d never been to school , as you know , with a B lack or W hite until I went in to Navy flight training. So, you don’ t really know how well you are going to do or not, but you certainly wouldn’ t be in there unless you had certain— B: Certain [inaudible 37:31] .

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 16 O: Well, the thing is, you find pretty early that you dictate a lot of your future by your own initiative s and motivation, and desires and what have you. And I learned I think fairly early that you can take average intelligence and do anything with it you want if you ’ re willing to, you know, put the time and effort to it. But I went into the Navy , even as I said with my background of never having been to school with a B lack or W hite, into an allCaucasian background. But a couple of things is, the mesh was pretty good for me in that everyone got up at the same time when reveille was sounded. Everyone went through a process of sameness. You went to the mess hall for meals, you took the calisthenics, you went to ground school, you went to the flight line for your flight training. You went through, you went down and signed up for insurance, you took physical s. Pretty soon you can start seeing some of the validity in this total program ming , whereas you would not have had in a program whereas, say for instance you’ re only taking welding or you’ re only taking carpentry. These other things are not being taken care of. But I guarantee you your time is taken care of in the Navy flight training program , from the time you get up in the morning until you complete your class studies , into the night , in preparation of the next day ’ s events. As I said , it was really compact during World War II , because you only had every eighth day off, and consequently there isn’ t much free time, and therefore it ’ s totally programmed, and it doesn’ t make any difference you were an Indian or whether you know, in there were students from Harvard, Princeton, you know the most affluent part of our country. B: What really makes the difference is whether or not you can perform, right?

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 17 O: Well, I guess that ’ s exactly it. You know , you have to carry your own level but I think probably my weakest area had to be mathematics. But I again, a m fortunate in the fact that my roommate, Lew, had majored in mathematics at the Univer sity of Illinois, and as I said I had a private pilot ’ s license, and I had no problem with flying and aerodynamics and what have you. So, we matched pretty well because he had problems in that area, and I had to really put it out, because we went through a half inch book of calculus in what, about three weeks , you know. And I had only gone through Dr. Brown ’s college math course, you know, and that wasn’ t a great background. But at least it was the basi cs. But the mathematics part really was my only problem academically, but as I said it took extra time, but I also had a roommate who was very helpful. [Break in recording] B: M ight be of interest to others. There are so many things about you we need to say , and we don’ t want to miss them. O: Be happy to, Lew. I guess maybe the best way to do this would be to add the personal education experience awards, et cetera. I had mentioned before some of that earlier in the tape, but I ’ ll condense it somewhat. As I said, I was born in December 23, 1922. I ’ m presently married to the former Elizabeth Moody who is from Tampa, Florida. We have three sons, Thomas , now age seventeen, who is a senior at Washington Lee High School. He currently is active on the varsity football, varsity wrestling, and varsity baseball teams. He’ s active in classwork and hopes to be entering the university next year to study law, or prelaw at that point . I have a son, Bill, who is also active in three sports in Swanson Junior High

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 18 School here in Arlington. We live at 1141 North Harrison in Arlington and have purchased a home there and have resided in that locale since 1965. Youngest son Robert is in junior high in the eighth grade, also very active in athletics, so we are blessed with three fine we lladjusted youngsters who make honor rolls and are active year round in three sports. As I said before, I ’ m a member of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina, member of the National Congress of American Indians, the National Aviation Club here in Washington, and of course the National Press Club, and I was one of the earliest Indians , of course, admitted to the National Press Club here in Washington. My education— B: Weren’ t you an officer in that at one time? O: Not in the National Press Club, no. My education kind of basically outlined, I graduated from Cherokee Indian Normal High School in Pembroke in 1934. I entered Pembroke State—I’ m sorry , I graduated from the Cherokee Normal High School in Pembroke in 1938, I entered in [19]34, graduated in [19]38. I then entered Cherokee Indian Normal College which later changed to Pembroke State College for Indians, now Pembroke State University , in 1938 and continued until I left in 1942 after the first semester as I ’ ve already outlined to enter into Navy flight train ing. I returned to Pembroke at the end of World War II , and received my bachelor degree in social science with a minor in physical education. I then entered the University of Southern California where I completed, in 1949 and [ 19] 50, and completed undergraduate physical education courses to pursue a coaching athletic career. I returned to Pembroke State College in 1950 to complete courses required for teaching certification which I had not included in

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 19 my earlier academic work. And I ’ m also a graduate of the Armed Forces Information School in Fort Benjamin Harrison, and I did that in 1966. And that ’s where the public information officers in the military attain their journalism or courses designed for public information. My basic experiences kind of center around outside of school. I was in the Navy from 1942 to 1947. I was commissioned as a naval aviator in December of 1942. I participated during World War II in the Pacific o n the USS Mobile, as I ’ ve stated before some thirty fleet engagements. I returned after [inaudible 46:13] as a member of the faculty at Pembroke High School from 1950 until April [19]51 as the athletic director and coach of all of the athletic programs there, both boys and girls in the physical education capacity. I was a Navy jet fighter pilot in various squadrons from 1951 to 1960, including positions as the commanding officer of training S quadron 2 in the Naval Basic Training Command from January 1960 to November 1962 when I was assigned as the Deputy Fleet Information Officer on the staff of the commander in Chief U.S. Pacific Fleet from November [19]62 to July of [19]65, at which tim e I was assigned as the Public affairs officer for Commander Task Force 77, which was in the Gulf of Tonkin, which was the initial part of the war in Vietnam. In those duties they were fairly much the same as any other public affairs assignment , in that you work with newsman covering the war either on the USS Independence, a nd also participating in Saigon, in the release of information to newsm e n regarding the military operations in Vietnam of the Navy . From there I returned to the continental United States as the aviation plans Officer, later director of that plans division in the Office of Information, secretary

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 20 of the Navy ’ s Office of Information in the Pentagon. I was in that assignment from [ 19] 65 to [ 19 ] 68, at which time I became the p ublic affairs o fficer or head of that office for the Naval Air Systems Command here in Washington until I left the Navy in 1970 t o the present assignment as Public Information Officer for the Bureau of Indian Affairs , of where I have been since. On the bio you mentioned th e awards, well — B: Right, and the medals , a nd the combat experience. O: Well, in 1967—you were part of that , Lew —you know I ’ m very honored to have been awarded Pembroke State University ’ s first Annual Distinguished Alumnus Award. Many have, since 1967— th ey have made a yearly award of that particular honor. I was designated as a Navy public information specialist as a result of having attended the—when I graduated from the Armed Forces Information School at Fort Benjamin Harrison. Of course, as long as you are the only one— you can be the first in a lot of things. So that of course was the first Indian to do a lot of things in the Navy . I had mentioned that I received extensive flight coverage or press coverage as a result of going through Navy flight tra ining as the first American Indian. I remember getting as many as three hundred and fifty letters a week, you know, just normal ly — B: You needed a fan club. [Laughter] O: Just normally , you know , of people just interested in how I was doing, and some of my various views on things. T hen, in 1972—and I’ve been listed since in “ Who’ s Who in Government ” here in Washington, and of course, all of those are a matter of record. R elated to World War II, I received many medals and honors

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 21 of which one of them was Dis tinguished Flying Cross, and I ’ m very, very proud of, and I know that you have written about that assignment. But again, for the record it was awarded for, as I said, I was in a scout observation assignment at that time in which it was a single engine floa t plane that landed near a ship and was hoisted aboard, you know, under wet what have you. It was a kingfisher. Well, this is also used in rescue work during the war. Well , while on assignment in 1944, June, right off the coast of Yap, a TBM crew had been shot down, and as you may or may not know , normally the rescue operations were done by submarine. What would happen is when the fleet went into an island, or one of the operations , we had a rescue submarine. W hat would happen is that submarine would be off the coast underwater, and then recover pilots who then went in and what have you by periscope, and take them out to where they could be then the submarine could surface and take them aboard, or could transfer them — B: That was smart, wasn ’ t it? O: Oh y es, very, very smart. But in this particular case, off Yap, this pilot was shot down right near the beach, and therefore the submarine could not stay submerged and go in there and recover him. So, it was decided to try to make a rescue of this crew by sending me in to see if I could get it. And I remember very well landing, or attempting to land, near this beach. It was in kind of a half moon there at Yap. B: What were you flying?

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 22 O: An OS2U Kingfisher built by Vought S i korsky, single engine, and I landed and I had to zigzag on the landing, but there was Navy fighters at that time st r afing the beach, and strafing the gun emplacements which were firing at my plane. And they were hitting, and even splashing water with shells, you know, but the thing is you are involved in an operation, you have a chance to rescue a crew of people, and so that means a lot you know because if you don’ t, they ’ re going to be captured. So, it was as I said right near the beach and I was caught kind of in crossfire, but I went in and was able to get them onto the wing of the plane and zigzag out to the area where I could take them on board, two in the back seat, and then take off and fly back to the ship. B: You taxied out with them on the wing of the plane. O: Taxied out then, zigzagging at high speed— B: They were hanging on for dear life. O: Right, that ’ s right. And then, until I could get them out to where I can safely take off outside of the range of gunfire. Well , of course, that was a Distinguished Flying Cross I wa s awarded for that having been observed by the air g roup commander who had watched it. But you know as I went in there, and I can remember this very well, that when, you know, they were trying to neutralize the gunfire on the beach, and when I went into, i t took some time to spot them in the water you know, that ’ s not an easy thing to do. First of all , they ’ re shooting at you while you’ re doing this, but then you go in to make this landing, and as, you know , you have to slow down to speeds and so forth, and then they decided to call it off. But I really was determined at that point to do what I could, even to take

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 23 some hits in the plane, because you know , lives were at stake—a lthough they figured, you know, that it was a little bit too dangerous to do. But I elected to kind of overrule that and went ahead and, as if , you know, and they were telling me not to land, but went ahead and landed anyway and brought them out. But anyway, that was the Distinguished Flying Cross. I brought back planes from [inaudible 5 5:37] that were, picked up the bullet holes , et cetera . Participated in a lot of very interesting kind of things. I was shot down in a crossfire at [inaudible 55:49] with an OS2U, but fortunately was able to get back to the ship. I know that came back and I was kind of surprised to find that within six inches of my head you know a bullet had sailed through armor piercing had gone all the way through the airplane. So that was about the closest I think I came to not being around any longer. But again Lew, you know we were talking earlier I think I have been extremely fortunate, lucky in having had the opportunity to have taken advantage of a lot of the things that have happened to me. I was in the Pentagon; I was asked to head another particular thing that I remember well and will always cherish will be the press officer for an official state visit to Australia and New Zealand. This is one where you meet all the heads of the various provinces and what have you in Australia. We were in there for a month. Vis ited all over Australia in a very state official kind of capacity that normally is reserved to those who travel with the president. Because you meet —you’ re into the full gamut of the real exposure of that diplomatic core. I had never really had an opportunity to participate in it. Have participated in Medal of Honor presentations in the White House in my capacity as a public Information and out of the

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 24 Pentagon, I have had the opportunity of doing that, and the opportunity of many meetings with cabinet members along with the commissioner, you know , in my present capacity as Public Information officer here in the Bureau. I travel with the commissioner, and I have visited probably as many Indian reservations as most peopl e. I t ’ s kind of hard for me to visit —to feel that in four years that there’ s very few that I have not visited. I ’ ve done extensive travel throughout the lower forty eight —in fact , all the states. And then, of course, my background in the Navy permitted me to visit all of the continents —less Antarctica, I never went there, but all the others. So, I ’ ve had a chance to see various cultures, lifestyles. It ’ s been very rewarding to match the two together. If time permits, and I know I ’ m doing most of the talking, and you probably do hav e — B: Oh, I’ m fascinated. O: H ave some questions, but I would like to clarify a point about the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and if I could just take a few minutes and do that. B: Oh, I hope you will. O: I would just like to have your —I know you’ re a historian of Indian affairs , and I ’ m a leader of it , but maybe we’ ll see if we mesh on how we think it is, because— B: You ’ re not only a historian, you’ re a maker of history , Thomas. A lot of history. [ L aughter] O: Well, I guess maybe when the settlers first came to this country , there wasn’ t much of a problem , you know, not initially. But at some point in time later the two cultures became no longer compatible. The settler ’ s way of division of land, et cetera, and the Indian culture or use of land—t he ownership and w hat have you

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 25 by the settlers, and the use the native way, were diametrically opposed. These two could not jell any better maybe than Indian preference in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the Civil Service Merit Promotion System. You know you can’ t have a happy marriage of either of these, because they are diametrically opposed. But anyway, no particular problem initially, but at a point later these were no longer compatible, which eventually led to restricting the Indian to reservations or restricting his ability to do those things that he had done before. Now, the justification, I guess , on the other side is kind of contained in Thomas Jefferson’ s teachings , in that we are an oppressed people coming to this country, but we’ re bringing to this country an advanced civilization over what we find here. That was kind of his interpretation. So therefore, the solution of the problem would be to educate, civilize, and train the Indian over to our way, and then there’ s plenty of land and natural resources for everyone. Now , the only problem with that is it had varying degrees of acceptance by the Indians, you know there— B: Which is understandable. O: Oh absolutely, very . You know , some did and some didn’ t. I think the Lumbees probably adjusted pretty well to that. Anyway, they didn’ t get removed in the Indian Removal Act, you know when the decision was made to remove all the Indians from —they learned to farm and till the soil and not be a particular big problem, anyway they did not get moved. But the Bureau of Indian Affairs was then formed in 1824 under the War Department. It operates under —and then in 1849 it was transferred to the Department of the Interior where it, you know it ’ s

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 26 one of the oldest agencies of government. It operates under the legislative authorit y of the Snyder Act, and you’ re familiar with that, and it states that basically the, it ’ s a general authorization act of the Congress, in that the Congress will appropriate monies for the general administration, welfare, health, protection, et cetera, for Indians “throughout the land.” Well, if you look at that authorization, and that you have a bureau charged with the advocacy for Indians , why has the Indian kind of fallen to all of the lowest levels of all of your sociological economic measurements that you can have? He ’ s gone to the bottom of it. How can that happen with a bureau charged with responsibility? Certain ly, that Snyder Act does not limit us in performing the duties that we want. Well, now first of all , the Bureau of Indian Affairs is an agency of government that administers a policy. In this particular case it ’ s the F ederal Indian P olicy. They have to go back and look at that F ederal Indian P olicy, and see if the policies have always, really and truly, been in the best interest of the Indians. See, that ’ s kind of the key. Our policies over the years —at least up until 1970—was a policy to train and educate the Indian to take his rightful place in society. You know , the old melting pot, the assimilation thing. Well, the administrat ion by the bureau was a trustee relationship. T he F ederal Indian P olicy is one in which is attained through treaty and executive orders. It ’ s a trustee relationship. If we, as the federal government — B: And t he treaty is necessary, isn’ t it? O: Absolutely. B: The treaty is a legal necessity.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 27 O: Well, the main thing is the role between the government and Indians is a trustee one, so if we don’ t hold anything in trust for a tribe, then there is no relationship between the federal government — B: N o grounds for it. O: No , because it ’ s a trustee. It ’ s not a guardian of Indian people. The bureau is not a guardian of the people. It ’ s got nothing to do with whether an individual is four fourths or what have you. Our policy in the bureau is this: it is a relationship between two hundred sixty four tribes, bands, and groups in the lower forty eight plus an additional two hundred villages in Alaska, the Alaskan natives. Now , in order to be eligible for services in the Bureau of Indian Affairs , an individual must be an enrolled member of one of these two hundred sixty four tribes that has this treaty executive order relationship that we hold part of over fifty million acres of land in trust for. If you’ re an enrolled member of that living on or near the reservation—and for most of all of our programs, of onefourth blood quantum — then that is the establishment of that relationship. So, if the Indian who—he can be four fourths, moves off into the urban area, then as I said that relationship is not, you know, the trustee thing is not with an Indian living in Raleigh, North Carolina for instance. I mean he can four fourths Navaj o, move to Raleigh, and the program thing is back in Navajo, you know, we have our relationship with the Navajo tribe. He’ s an enrolled member but our programs are back at Navaj o for this particular individual. So that ’ s kind of misunderstood sometimes in— B: And people are—some newsmen have said if you’ re off reservation, you’ re no longer an Indian.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 28 O: Well, you know, that ’ s their interpretation. There is no legal definition for an Indian as you’ re quite well aware. I think most general is an Indian is a person of Indian ancestry , kind of known to his peers as an Indian, who self identifies himself as an Indian and is known as an Indian by his peers. That ’ s generally, basically it. A nd then, of course, if you look at the history of the census it was an Indian is a person who regards himself or identifies himself as an Indian. B: So, the criteria differs depending on the particular branch of the federal government, doesn’ t it? O: Well, I ’ m really only speaking of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Now of course, we have two tribes right here in Virginia that are state reservations. We have no relationship from the federal government to those reservations. Got nothing to do with again — B: [inaudible 1:07:52] O: T hat ’ s correct. And we have other state— B: The Mattaponis and the Pamunkeys. O: Right , Pamunkeys and the Mattaponis , but we have other state reservations on the east that have no r elationship because their relationship is within the state that they reside. In other words , the federal government does not hold their land in trust. It’ s held by either themselves or it ’ s held by the state. So, I think that one must understand that relat ionship in order to understand the federal government ’ s role. B: This i s a legal working basis.

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 29 O: That is correct. It ’ s as I said a trustee. If the United State g overnment held, say all or most of Robeson County in trust for Lumbees then you would have that relationship. If you don’ t , then it is not there. Now , what about the thing of whether it should be that way or not is not for us to decide. That ’ s the way it is, you know. That ’ s the fact in it. B: It’s the government’s problem. O: If somebody wants to change it , then there are mechanisms to seek changes. Senate Joint Resolution 133 is going to study that, and to look at whether the relationship that the government has had with Indians is the true and right and correct one. Now really on the ot her side, or defensible for the government ’ s position on this is when an Indian leaves this federal Indian relationship or leaves the reservation, you know since 1924 he was given full citizenship and the right to vote. The government, or our position i s t his , that when an Indian leaves the federal Indian relationship or leaves the reservation, moves into an urban or rural area, he’ s entitled to all the rights, benefits, privileges, et cetera as any other citizen. Therefore, the government has taken the pos ition that an Indian has those rights and therefore it is the state, city, county , or what have you’ s responsibility. B: It’ s their responsibility. O: To provide him every what thing is necessary in order that he has the full rights as anyone else. The bigger question is when an Indian leaves should he be treated any differently than any other ethnic group. Well , the Congress has not decided to change that at this time. Whether it should be different, you know, we

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 30 don’ t know. But you remember the p resident kind of reversed all that federal Indian policy in 1970. B: President Richard M. Nixon. O: Right, you know he came out with that historic message of July 8, in which basically were three parts. One, we ’ re gonna—you know, that the present or that past policy of dealing across the board with Indians is now the most deprived, depressed group of people in the United States, under a policy that was supposed to benefit him. Y ou know, I think there’ s no question that this was the finest policy that has ever been established in Indian affairs. Because one of the, you know you can look at it , Lew , real quickly that for instance the Miccosukees in Florida, they have very little relationship with the San Carlos Apaches in Arizona. What do they have really in common, these two hundred sixty four different groups, any more than all the Caucasians in Europe would agree on priority ? It’ s very hard to get a conformant, or a unified position among Indians because they are just like anyone else. They have different priorities, different viewpoints on things, and what have you. So, this self determination without termination was a very good, sound policy. It was one in which there were three points to it, self determination wit hout termination, it was going to change the Bureau of Indian Affairs from a management organization to a technical service organization, and then third, involve Indians in the decisionmaking processes of government. These three key items were the points within that thing. Now what does that really mean. Well, the self determination would be for instance that say since the Seminoles or say the Mississippi Choctaw tribe would come up with

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 31 long range plans to solve Mississippi Choctaw problems. The Bureau of Indian Affairs agency there at Choctaw would support that tribe in solution of those problems within the funding of that agency. They would involve the tribe in the budgeting process to determine those priorities, and it would not be contingent on what ’ s going on at the other two hundred sixty three. Because Navaj os may want to go a different direction. Now , as I said, the tribes would determine the future and direction that they should g o, and not have it contingent on the others. The consultation and bri nging of Indians into the bureau, you know I was a recipient of that policy. I was asked to come into the bureau in that it was changing to be more responsive to Indians. Y ou know , we had more awareness, the legislative proposals were submitted to the Congress, and there have been monumental changes. But there’ s been another thing. You know , in that message, it well defined the bureau’ s role and the eligibility for services out of the bureau. It stated something else. It stated that, at that time, half the Indians in the United States lived under the umbrella of the bureau and half do not. [inaudible 1:14:27] The Lumbees are a good example. There’ s a lot of Indians outside of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Now , the p resident ’ s message stated that OEO would be the lead agency in coordinating other departments in providing or seeing that other Indians outside of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, their assistance is put together. That office is now in the office of Native American Programs in HEW. Now they are charged with the off reservation or those Indians who fall outside the purview of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. But I thought that that would be helpful to distinguish what is that federal Indian relationship, why it is that

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 32 way —and as I said, I ’ m not defending it one way or the other, I ’ m just saying that ’ s the way it is. It was es tablished through treaty and executive order. If we hold these sources in trust, then we have it, if not then it ’ s outside the bureau. B: Well, I certainly am glad you explained that relationship between the government these two distinctly different groups legally. But inasmuch as the tape is running short, I want to ask you, there’ s so many other things that I ’ d like to ask you, and we just don ’ t have the time. You don’ t have the time, the tape’ s running out. For example, what are you going to do the rest of the day? I know how busy you are, tell us something about it. O: Well, Lew, this is a very exciting kind of an office. I run inquiries for newsmen to briefings for various people, including this afternoon I have the pleasant assignment of spending two hours with the wife of the Prime Minister of Luxemburg — B: Oh , great. O: W ho has a very much of an interest in Indian affairs, and I will be spending as I said that time briefing her on general, those things that she has a great deal of interest in. For y our information, she is also a journalist, which you ’ ll have an interest in. B: You have a lot in common then. O: I ’ ll mention you to her — B: Oh, you’re [inaudible 1:17:07] O: —and maybe you’ ll have some communication with her if she has an interest in p ursuing that . B ut her name is Mrs. Lilian e ThornPetit , and I will spend about

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 33 two hours —she’ s having lunch today with the ambassador and state department people that flew into New York yesterday, and said high on her list, of course, is learning more about American Indians. But next week I ’ ll be going out to a National Indian Education meeting in Phoenix, Arizona on the thirteenth, then on the fourteenth, Scottsdale for a National Indian Housing conference. On the twenty fifth I’ ll be going up to Bismarck, North Dakota to meet with the United Tribes in discussion of an Aberdeen area office. They have some things with the commissioner of Indian Affairs. I look very much forward to an early return down to Pembroke, of course my — B: We ’ re looking for you. O: I’ ll be down there you know during at least the Christmas time. I don’ t know whether I ’ ll be able to make it for Thanksgiving or not, but you know you can move the people the Lumbees especially out of there, but home’ s still in Robeson County to me. A n d although I am very happy with my assignment here Lew, I have a very exciting one, and I run into things from, “W hy would you work the Bureau of Indian Affairs with all the past histories of what has happened Indians ?” “H ow do you defend going in with the calvary, and moving out the Chickasaws in 1835?” B: You don ’ t have to do that , do you? O: Well, you know I got a call just recently saying, “ How could you as an official spokesman of the government defend morally, legally, or any other way, having dealt with the particular treaty, and then going in there later, and routing the people out you know, and taking their land?” And of course, then you have to put

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 34 things in perspective. You’ ve got to understand the system of government, that no Congress can bind the future Congress. The Congress negotiates a treaty, negotiated them with the Indians, but the thing is a future Congress may re negotiate that treaty and, in most cases, they did under the thing, “I t ’ s considered in the best interest of the United States. ” So really , to understand it , you must take a position that we have treaties with other countries now. Fifty years from now it may be decided that “in the interest of the best United States” it might need to be altered. But again, I ’ d just like to tell you how happy I am to have seen you and participate in this, and maybe we can do it again when we have more time. My best to your son, Lew. I ’ m a great admirer of his efforts on behalf of the Carolina Indian Voice, and again I hope something can be done to memorialize all of our people that I have great admiration for as I ’ ve said, especially the Indian leadership, Paul Sampson, a coach who had a great influence on my life, through athletics and continuation in school. Of course, my parents and all of the ones who helped encourage me to continue in education. But as I said, if that permit s you to take the advantage of the other, you know. M y grandfather who could see just dividing, continuing to divide up the land, it ’ s gonna run out pretty soon, becaus e you can’ t do it that way. But Lew again, thanks a lot and I wish you well, and please stay in touch. B: We ’ ll certainly do that, and we want to thank you so much. This is such a valuable and enlightening interview. Your explanations as always are so clear, your heart is in the right place, and your brain too. Always Tom, you’ re always there at the right time doing the right thing. And we are so honored to have this

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UL 031; Oxendine; Page 35 interview with you, and you are so kind to take this time off from your very busy schedule and sit down and talk with us. And I want to wish you Godspeed in all that you attempt to do, because you do everything so well, and I thank you from the bottom of my heart. O: Thank you very much, Lew. [End of interview] Tr anscribed by: Alana Jones , Dec ember 30, 2023 Audit edited by: Jillian Wessel, April 15, 2024 Final edit by: Sam Johnson, April 17, 2024



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UL 31A SUB: Thomas Oxendine INT: Lew Barton JF November 6, 1980 B: This is November 6, 1974. I'm Lew Barton recording forAUniversity of Florida's History Department, American Indian Oral History program. This morning we are favored to be in WashingtonjD.C.,in the office of the Department of the Interior. And with me and kindly consenting to give us an interview is Mr. Thomas Oxendine 1 who is head of the Department of Information, Bureau of Indian Affairs, and of course/the Bureau of Indian Affairs is a part of the United Stated Department of the Interior. Is that right Mr. Oxendine? 0: That is correct, it's a real pleasure Lew/to . . B: Oh you are so gracious to give us this interview, and IOve been looking forward to it, and we want you to tell us all about yourself in your own sort of way or any kinds of comments that you would like to make in your own way. And I'll just sit here and mostly listen because)you know)you and I are both pretty good talkers Cchuckle, 0: Well it's a real pleasure as I said. Probably a little background that I might add is, first I am a Lumbee Indian from North Carolina. I was born in December 23, 1922. Son of Thomas H. and Georgia R. Mayner. My father was a schoolteacher, and was born on a, in a small Indian village about two miles west of Pembroke, which is kind of the center of Lumbee affairs in that partlas you are well aware. I first started to school in, a little small school, two-room school, in was I which is about in the area where I was born in which I started to school when I was five. Having, as I said, been the oldest of eight children, I could read and write before I started to school. And since the teacher had three grades in the one room, I could read the second-grade books so it wasn't very long in that first

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UL 31A 2 0: year that I got elevated to the second grade, and consequently when I was. . . B: rho& always considered you to be a brain. 0: No, I wouldn't say that, but I just got an early start, and wound up at six years of age in the third grade, and so we only had eleven grades in school in those days, but I finally graduated at the age of fifteen from Cherokee Indian Normal High School 4t'over there in Pembroke. From there I continued my schooling at Cherokee Normal College up until the, as that school progressed I was in my fourth A year when the World War II came along and I immediately enlisted into the favy. But while at Pembroke, as you are quite familiar Lew, you and I attended many courses together, and I remember well . . . B: Very enjoyable ones. 0: And I remember well in our days in journalism, although you pursued that, and I went elsewhere, but the last twelve years though I have moved back into public affairs, the last eight yearsIof course in the (avy. But kind of just sketching out where I've been since we were together. I of course in 1942, as World War, well let me back up a little I did the normal kind of pursuits at Pembroke. Going through bachelor, seeking a Bachelor of Arts in the liberal arts side of teaching, and that's what I was pursuing. I wasjparticipated in all the athletic programs at Pembroke . . . B: Right, you've always been a great athlete. 0: WelllI was fortunate enough to make the teams in each of the sports, and I participated in all of those normally. I participated in the class activities that were normally done. And I know that I enjoyed very much, and I have very fond memories, of my days at Pembroke. But the next event, as I said in 1942, the war broke out, and I had prior taken flight training at Pembroke in an academic course that was run through civilian pilot training course at Lumberton, which was about eight miles away, and I obtained a private license under a program there. And then of course the war came along, and I spent t World War II, well.

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UL 31A 3 0: let me back up again. I entered into the /avy, or sought to enlist in the lavy and found that the davy only accepted caucasians, and I had a little problem there for a while until I got a ruling out of Washington, and of course I then received extensive press coverage as the first American Indian to go through Javy flight training. B: That's great. How about the first American Indian to enter the 4avy? 0: Well I don't know about that part, but I was the first to enter/avy flight training, and I was commissioned an Ynsign at the completion of that course in December of 1942. I enlisted in the lavy in January and after clearing the hurdles that were theremainly because of the policies of government dealing with segregation, when that was cleared)why)I was permitted to go through, and had a very enjoyable time going through, and I had a, it's just something in flying) Lew, if you know . . . B: You're a great flyer Tom. 0: Well~ I don't know. It's something that I, not many people get an opportunity to do something that they feel that they do well. But this is something that came very easily to me and I had no particular prior interest in flying. I never built model airplanes or did any of those sort of things, aea but I got an opportunityjas you know it was a volunteer thing and they took ten students, they took ten Indian students. This program was kind of designed tojas a quote)"Pilot program ' to teach ten Indians, see how well they'd do in flying. And I don't know how many people signed up, but they took them based on an academic backgroundIetc., and I was one of the people, but right from the . . . B: You're being modest) 1qrA, 0; No, but right from the beginning it's something I could do extremely well, and I never got a downcheck. I, you know, entered into thelavy and went through without any problem whatsoever. I never had any of the normal kind of difficulties that I find out later in, as I taught you know people to fly, there's just certain

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UL 31A 4 0: people who have a knack of doing, you know and like I said I had no problem. But I then spent all of World War II of course in varying capacities in the /avy. I left the $avy in 1947, returned to Pembroke to complete my education. In 1948 I received my i from Pembroke. And then the fall of 1948 I matriculated to University of Southern California where I majored in physical education, re0 turned to Pembroke in 1950, and reentered to get my teaching credentials, and o then the, that was I'm sorry ) in the fall of 1949. And then in 1959 I joined the staff at Pembroke High School as the director of athletics, and then was recalled to Korea in April of 1951, and remained in the 4avy as a pilot, the last eight years in public affairs. And retired from the favy in 1970, at which time I joined the Bureau of Indian Affairs in my present capacity as the public affairs officer for the Bureau of Indian Affairs here in Washington. I have had an exteme variety of assignments, Lew. I would like . . . B: I bet it's been interesting. 0: Wellit certainly has. I kind of don't know where to hit at any particular areas, but maybe we might talk a little about the role as an Indian in these which is a little bit different than most. And there are some kind of things that are pertinent ih that area. Going back a little bit, as I said, I entered in Charlotte, North Carolina at the recruiting there, and they had, as I said to get a ruling. Because the rules for being an officer in the lavy were that you had to be a caucasipn. Well)that leaves us out you know. So I still think it was probably the rules of the black-white thing which the Indians are kind of caught in the middle, right. So when that was clarified, I then went down to Atlanta, went through elimination flight training. And the first thing Mr. Ted Mann, who headed the Duke University publicity department was the public information officer there at Atlanta. And of course he found out he had an Indian in and he did the normal kinds of things of getting a lot of publicity. And as you can remember I received tremendous, all through no particular discrimination, not any

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UL 31A 5 0: that I could see. It was exactly the reverse. B: Maybe it acted, maybe it worked as an asset rather than a liability. 0: Wellyou know one of the things though that was kind of confusing, I of course had read the same books that everyone else does that distorts Indian history completely/ but in entering the number of people that you met, why/they kind of had the romantic side of Indians and pointed out that you certainly must be very proud of your Indian ancestry)etc. But then they would relate real quickly to Indian leaders which I only had varying degrees of knowledge. Naturally Jim Thorpe, big hero among non-Indians. B: Wellryou know about him. 0: Well of course, he's a great, you know I'm a geat admirerOP of him. Crazy Horse, Tecums~h, all of the great Indian leaders were kind of brought up to me as people that I should kind of relate to. But I had problems with that Lew, because they were not necessarily, other than known people. The people that I admired were those Lumbees who I could identify with as Indians that were not well known, such aslyou knowlReverdnd L. W. Moore, who helped get our schools started, Mr. O. R. Sampson. I take great pride in the Lumbee Indians who helped get that thing turned around in 1887 because I know now well the history that dealt in, in the policies of government that caused a lot of the changes in 1835, and we have a pretty sad history between 1835 and 1887 as you are quite well aware. And it was a case of being caught between of course the federal government whose policies were only as a trustee to Indians, and the states who took the point that Indians are the responsibility of the federal government. So, you know, we were caught in the middle of that. And it must have taxed well. The Lumbee Indian leadership at that time, and I really am very proud of their persistence, and really having the view that education is the way, and of finally, and I'm sure they had many, many problems in getting started, but it's now beginning to pay off.

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UL 31A 6 B: Right, exactly. 0: As I said I hope that something can be done to recognize the deep debt of gratitude that Lumbee Indians owe to those people who were able to kind of turn that bad situation around during that period. But their struggles must have been tremendous. B: Oh)yes. We had, they sort of pulled us up by ouFboot straps. We had nothing D-hb sa-Prk W<.t* * O: I'm sure you have this recorded in other areas, but for those who are not quite familiar with it, as I understanait, of course we were CJo_ _,-__ _, well identified up through the early part of 1900, and then about 1911 or so we were made at least Cherokee Indians of RobeKSson County. And that's how I entered the )avy, as a Cherokee Indian of Robertson County. The laws pertaining to Indians mainly, partly of it is was due to segregation. B: __ 0: Oh)yeah of course. My birth certificate lists my mother and father as Indians. The law, I was only permitted)say/to go to Indian schools, There were laws against intermarriage between.":?. I was not eligible to go to a black or white school, I could only go to the Indian schools. But you know I look back on that,-at the time I don't think I really had any great interest in going to any of the other schools anyway, 'cause I was completely happy in my own environment. We had our own schools, our own churches. And I guess maybe that personally I accepted that well. And I think ones real ability in life to kind of mesh is that ability to adjust to ever what you have to adjust to anyway. But I remember my father told me once that, you knowJyou're going to, in life when you leave and especially from around Pembroke where we did not have discrimination certainly in Pembroke, not openly anyway. B: That was the Lumbee town, that was our town. O: That's right, that was our town. Uncle Sonny was the mayor, and we had our

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UL 31A 7 0: own chief of police, city council and so forth, but there was none there. It's only when you kind of tended to leave your own area. As long as you kind of stayed in your place, you know, no problem. But he told me that you're going to run into problems with certain people because, just because you're an Indian. But that's kind of based on the fact that they did not like maybe the Indians they had met or for some reason they've come up with that. But this system of government, and they won't want anything to do with you just because you're an Indian, nothing else. I mean/it's not you per se, it's just you're an Indian and they would not care to have anything to do with you. But this system of government also permits him that right to exclude, based on any particular reason he might want. But you can also do the same thing. You can exclude those people that you don't, it's just the way that it has, and I kind of never forgot that. So I always kind of took the position that people who don't want, would not want to have anything to do with me, you know, they have that right. But it's too bad that their communication is such that they have come up with those kinds of views. I have had a very interesting life. I first, as I said went through, getting back a little bit into a time frame in 1942, I went down to Atlanta. Colonel Earl Lowery, who at that time over at the hospital there was very helpful, also a Lumbee, who had gone to school with my Uncle Clifton, one of the early people who received a master's degree. And I'm sure you have him on tape, if not you ought to. But anyway ColX Lowery was very helpful in my adjustment in Atlanta. I then moved down to Jacksonville, Florida where I completed the remaining time to get my commission. I entered into the javy operational part in what was called VOVCS, scout observation training, flying, and joined the USS Mobile where I spent the next two years in the Pacific going through some thirty-plus fleet engagements in that capacity as a scout observation pilot, submarine search, and went through first battle was at Wake, and I participated in the bombing of that/ 1 4, z neutralizing a lot of these areas up

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UL 31A 8 O: through the second battle of the Phillipines, where I returned and then went into fighters. At the later part qualifying in the ,te s F6F Hellcat. I then became . . . B: That was one of the great machines . . . O: That was a fine, fine airplane. And then joined, started flying a corsair, the Yavy's F4U Vorsair, became a test pilot in Faie; in Detroit, Michigan, returned to the sea planes for a two-year assignment on the USS St. Paul, which took into the area as the, and I was head of the St. Paul aviation detachment. We served over in China. Very interesting tour and the follow-up at the end of World War II. We were anchored in the Hwangppoo River in Shanghai for six months. So I got to return to a little of my athletic wishes in that I coached the St. Paul baseball team which won that China district over there. B: Oh, that's great. O: And so I really, I really had a lot of fond memories about that particular thing. But at that time the Chinese, the Commumists would not move into that area because the U.S. was in there at that time, but by then, that's when I X left in November of 1947 and returned to Pembroke to enter that, enter school as I've mentioned before. I'd like to just kind of mention a little bitmy one of the real, few of the real highlights I consider in my life. One was my year as a coach there at Pembroke, under Mr. Elmer Lowery who sought in my senior year. av49itPwyVx there as I was getting my teaching credentials, asked me if I would be willing to do that. And course that's exactly what I wanted to do. And I can remember well moving in after Pembroke had had some problems in winning a championship over in Magnolia, and Prospect, and Fairmont had kind of dominated that league for quite some time. But I was fortunate enough to have Union Chapel, one of the other high schools, merge with Pembroke the year that I took over. So I herded a field of pretty good ballplayers, and I was the coach of both the girl's and boys basketball teams, and went through and had a great amount of luck in that capacity in that we won, had a season each, the boys and

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UL 31A 9 0: girls having nineteen wins and one loss, and thenwent through and won the county championship. And the Monday after that, Lew, the Monday after that high school tournament there at Pembroke, after we'd won on a Saturday night, on Monday night there was a package of information to return to the avy for Korea. . So I discussed it, took a leave of absence . . . B: You were of courseion javal 7eserveright? 0: I was in the baval reserve, as all people who had been in World War II, there a commitment for a>) to that, and of course that was not an option, it was just that if you had gone through you were, actually when you leave the avy you released-VP inactive duty. You were still eligible for those assignments. But 0I went back in and immediately went into jets. And that was real rewarding experience, and I went through the normal, oh)the USS Midway had three tours over in Europe. In the Mediterranean I served as the Administrative and Operations officer for Command Airgroup Six, later becoming the executive officer of Fighter Squadron 21 on the USS Midway. I then was reassigned in 1951 to, as the officer in charge of the lavy's gunnery Pnit at Pensacola, Florida, where we trained students in basic gunnery at Pensacola there. In 19531-'m sorry let me back up, in 1953 I went to Pensacola instead of 1951, and served that tour as CO of the gunnery unit. I then, 1956, I met a navy nurse there at Baron Field, and after a short period of time we were married, and I got orders in July of 1956 and moved on to a new assignment as the officer in charge of the 4avy's fleet jet training squadron unit at Moffit Field, California. This was a very interesting assignment in that we taught all of the fleet pilots to sharpen up on their ability to fly in all weather, all weather squadrons, these were the jet pilot who operated on the carriers, had to renew their instrument ratings etc. So I remained in that until that squadron was absorbed in VF124 and then I moved into the b9avy's, became a combat flight instructor, and the executive officer of 124 which is a big replacement airgroup squadron there at Moffit. I continued to participate in the athletic squadron,

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UL 31A 10 0: athletics up through as exec on the basketball team. I was on the g baseball team etc., continued to do that, and as I had in all the other squadrons. 1960 I left as executive officer 124 ac moved to Pensacola as the commanding officer of the Pavy's largest basic training squadron, training squadron two at North Whiting Field at Pensacola. That squadron had 198 airplanes, and had 165 pure flight instructors. I had an administrative staff of about seventeen officers, 800 enlisted personnel, and we trained at any one time 400-600 'avy flight students through transition, precision, acrobatics, basic instruments and night flying. So that was a tremendous operation that we had going there. in fact the students for the squadron operated from six o'clock in the morning until eleven at night, so we had a kind of around-the-clock you know with night flying and that kind of operation. But it was one of the real highlights, you know commanding a squadron of that capacity. Now at that point in 1960 to 1962 I had that, in October 1962 I then was offered an assignment as the Deputy Fleet Information Officer on the staff of Commander-in-Chief of Pacific Fleet. Now this gets us back to the public information . . . B: Whythis then was another phase of your interest of your life, journalism. 0: That's right. Well you know I had been sports editor when you were the editor of the college newspaper there. I was on your staff as the sports editor, and even though I had not followed it, pursued it a great deal after that, why, I did get a chance to return, and of course accepted that. And I moved to Hawaii on the staff and served for three years in that capacity as the Deputy Fleet Information Officer for Pacific Fleet which actually put out all the releases for Pacific Fleet and the, you know all over the Pacific. The fleet hometown news and the news releases, the interviews, the normal guest tours etc. They are very interesting assignments, not a great deal involved in Indian Affairs! but a very rewarding assignment. ~ in 1965 when the 4 avy pflt was involved with the, became involved with the war in Vietnam, I was detached to, eod the

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UL 31A 11 O: initial information program for the/avy's involvement in the Gulf of Tonkin. So I was sent out from Hawaii to head that on the USS Independence on the staff of the aQ2l, 9ommander)so I operated there during the later part of 1965 to set up that program, and then was assigned to the Office of Information in Washington on the Secretary of the Xavy's staff as the, in the office of plans. I directed the Office of Aviation Plans, that dealing with building of aircraft, the roll-outs, the programs involved around anything doing with aviation, carriers and so forth. I headed that within the information office of the secretary. I then C4i direct the entire office later on. And then in 1968 I was assigned to head the public Affairs Office for thelaval gir systems command . This was an operation that dealt with all weapon systems that deal with aircraft etc. And then I was, had that for two years here in Washington, had remained since 19-, or moved to Washington from Hawaii in 1965, and so in 1970 as I'm leaving the /avy)I was asked to join the Bureau in this present capacity. So I would if you would like)we can discuss that or what have you, but of course I've been here during the reorganization, the implementation of the self-determination policy, I was here. And it's kind of strange)but two years ago today)in this office)this was building was completely with 600 people who took it over. So two years ago today this office was . . . B: You really have something to report on, i~ _ g____ O: Oh)you're absolutely right, but I was in and out as the laison between the Indians who had this building and the government, both the White House, right the 5lA 1972, November 2-8 and today is the sixth and of course this is one of , I remember that very well. I also, in the capacity, handled the press at Wounded Knee, South Dakota during that takeover. The large number of newsm'n who, but that's part of the job that I presently have now. So I am familiar basically with all of those kind of things. I do think I understand the Lumbee history fairly well in its relationship to the government. And I think that if others understood it as well then they can accept ... *\U^

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UL 31A 12 B: You'd be very happy about it wouldn't you? 0: Well no, I don't know that they may be happy. But the thing is I believe, and I'm sure you do, that truth is good no matter it is. Truth has got to be good, and it's better that we know and seek truth because you make too many mistakes when you think you're dealing with truth and you really aren't. B: I wanted, you didn't have, you didn't seem to have this problem that so many of our people have, which is related to exactly what you are saying. And that is an inferiority complex, w you knowour people have been told that they are nobody and nothing so long that they have begun to believe this. And you can't say that about anybody really, can you? 0: Well} you know, again, I kind of was fortunate)Lew. if it hadn't been in the sequence that it was, you know I would not know. Butyou know as I said, I was at Pembroke, I was going through pursuing a teaching field. I'm not sure that that would've been exactly something I would have aspired to at that particular time or not. But the big keyjI think, and I've certainly seen it after I've come into the bureau, is that a lot of people don't have that opportunity to bridge that gap into the right set of circumstances, and I think I did. B: Somehow you, you were able to rise above it, alt you know.er-a, 0: Well, I think, I think in going from an Indian culture into the main stream. We have/for instance/in the Bureau of Indian Affairs. I last year, I was out on the Navaho reservation having lunch with retired Chief Justice Lincoln of the Navaho Supreme Court, and we were discussing Indian affairs. He's now retired, he lives back in his hogam under the most primitive type of/I but you know, he's had the affluence and he's gone back to this. But we were discussing the Bureau's Employment Assistance Program. This is a relocation program where Indians sign up for various job training, and then they, the bureau, has a program where we train the Indians to in a vocation, and then assist them in job placement. Now we were discussing that program, and he said to me, "Mr. Oxendine" he said, "it's !

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UL 31A 13 0: not the eight hours at work in Los Angelas, for instance as a welder, that defeats our Navahos, that's not what defeats them." He says "It's the other sixteen hours you're not training them for." And that's exactly what maybe you're talking about here, and how do you bridge that and not have it. Well moving out of Pembroke, and I'd never been to school you know/with a black or white until r went in the Jfavy flight training. So you don't really know how well you are going to do or not, but you certainly wouldn't be in there unless you had certain. .. B: Certain ,^s c 4 }c Coc_ 4~.?. . 0: Well the thing is, you find pretty early that you dictate a lot of your future by your own initiative and motivation, and desires and what have you. And I learned I think fairly early that you can take average intelligence and do anything with it you want if you're willing to, you know,put the time and effort to it. But I went into the, avy, even as I said with my background of never having been to school with a black or white, into an all caucasian background. But a couple of things is, the mesh was pretty good for me in that everyone got rel\j& IS up at the same time when re^e+ry was sounded. Everyone went through a process of sameness. You went to the mess hall for meals, you took the calisthenics, you went to ground school, you went to the flight line for your flight training. You went through, you went down and signed up for insurance, you took physical. Pretty soon you can start seeing some of the validity in this total program, whereas you would not have had in a program whereas, say/for instance you're only taking welding or you're only taking carpentry. These other things are not being taken care of. But I guarantee you your time is taken care of in the Vavy flight training program from the time you get up in the morning until you complete you knowlyour class studies into the night in preparation of the next days events. And as I said it was really compact during World War II because you only had every eighth day off, and consequently there isn't much free time, and therefore it's

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UL 31A 14 0: totally programS, and doesn't make any difference you were an Indian or whether you know, in there were students from Harvard, Princeton, you know the most affluent part of our country . . B: What really makes the difference is whether or not you can perform, right? 0: Well, I guess that's exactly it. You know you have to carry your own, your own level but I think probably my weakest area had to be mathematics. But again I'm fortunate in the fact that my roommate, Lew, had majored in mathematics at the University of Illinois, and as I saidI had a private pilots license, and I had no problems with flying and aerodynamics and what have you. So we matched pretty well because he had problems in that area, and I had really put it out, because we went through a half-inch book of calculus in what, about three weeks/ you know. And I had only gone through, you know Dr. Brown's college math courseyyou know, and that wasn't a great background. But at least it was a basis. But the mathematics part really was my only problem academically, but as I said it took extra time, but I also had a roommate who was very helpful. End Side 1A

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UL31A 15 B: might be of interest to others. There are so many things about you we need to say and we don't want to miss them. 0: Be happy to 4ew. I guess maybe the best way to do this would be to as the personal education experience awards, etc. I had mentioned before some of that earlier in A the tape but I'll condense it somewhat. As I said I was born in December/1922, December 23, 1922. I'm presently married to the former Elizabeth Moody who is from Tampa, Florida. We have three sons, Thomas, now age seventeen who is a senior at Washington Lee High School. He currently is active on the varsity football, varsity wrestling, and varsity baseball teams. He's active in classwork and hopes to be entering the university next year to study law, or pre-law, 'r', I have a son)Bill, who is also active in three sports in Swanson Junior High School here in Arlington, We live at 1141 N. Harrison in Arlington, and have purchased a home there and have resided in that locale since 1965. Youngest son Robert is in Inior igh in the eighth grade, also very active in athletics, so we are blessed with three fine adusted youngsters who make honor rolls, and are active year-round in three sports. As I said before/I'm a memlir of the Lumbee tribe of North Carolina, member of the National Congress of American Indians, the National Aviation Club here in Washington, and of courseathe National Press Club, and I was one of the earliest people, Indians, of course admitted to the National Press Club here in Washington. B: Weren't you an officer in that at one time? 0: Not in the National Press Club, no. My education kind of basically outlinedl-I graduated from Cherokee Indian Normal High School in Pembroke in 1934. I entered Pembroke State, I'm sorry I graduated from the Cherokee Normal High School in Pembroke in 1938, I entered in 434, graduated in 138. I then entered Cherokee Indian Normal College which later changed to Pembroke State College for Indians, now Pembroke State University, in 1938,and continued until I left in 1942 as a, after the first semester as I've already GatllneC tc enter I *

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UL 31A 16 0: into/avy flight training. I returned to Pembroke at the end of World War II, and redceed my bachelor's degree in social science with a minor in physical education. I then entered the University of Southern California where I completed, In 1949 and 1950, and completed undergraduate physical education courses to pursue a coaching athletic career. I returned to Pembroke State College in 1950 to complete courses required for teaching certification which I had not included in my earlier academic work. And I'm also a graduate of the Armed Forces Information School in Fort Benjamin Harrison, and I did that in 1966. And that's where the public affairs, public information officers in the military attain their journalism or courses designed for public information. My basic experiences kind of center around outside of school. I was in the /avy from 1942 to 1947. I was commissioned as a faval aviator in December of 1942. I participated during World War II in the Pacific On the USS Mobile, as Bu^ rst/ ? I've stated before some 4oaf fleet engagements. I returned after to as a member of the faculty at Pembroke High School from 1950 until April fortyone as the athletic director and coach of all of the athletic programs there, both boys and girls in the physical education capacity. I was a pavy jet fighter pilot in various squadrons from 1951 to 1960 including positions as the commanding officer of training squadron two in the Naval Basic Training Command from January 1960 to November/1962 whenI was assigned as the Deputy Fleet Information Officer on the staff of the commander-in-Chief U.S. Pacific Fleet I I I from Nove iaber, a62 to July of W65, at which time I was assigned as the Public affairss officerr for Commander Task Force 77, which was in .the Gulf of Tonkin, which was the initial part of the war in Vietnam. 4 in those duties they were fairly much the same as any other public affairs assignment in that you work with newsman covering the war either on the USS Independence and also participating in the, in Saigon in the release of information to newsman regarding the military operations in Vietnam of the javy. From there I returned to the continental United States as the aviation plans Officer, later director of that plans division

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UL 31A 17 O: in the Office of Xnformation, secretaryy of the avy's Gffice of Znfomation in the Pentagon. And I was in that assignment from 1965 to 1968, at which time I became Public affairss Officer or head of that office for the Naval Air Systems Command here in Washington until I left the/avy in 1970 6t the present assignment as Public Information Officer for the Bureau of Indian Affairs of where I have been since. On the bio you mentioned the awards, well . . . B: Right, and the medals. And the combat experience. O: Well, in 1967, you were part of that Lew, you know/I'm very honored to have been awarded Pembroke State University's first Annual Distinguished Alumnus Award. Many have since 1967, they have made a yearly award of that particular honor. I was designated as the, as a Xavy publicc information specialist as a result of having attending the,bcoming graduated, when I graduated from the Armed Forces Information School at Fort Benjamin Harrison. Of course as long as you are the only one, of course you can be the first in a lot of things. So that of course was the first Indian to do a lot of things in the avy. I had mentioned that I received extensive flight coverage, or press coverage as a result of going through /avy flight training as the first American Indian. I used to get, I remember getting as many as 350 letters a weeksyou know just normally . . . B: You needed a fan club/ chuckle, O: Just normally you know of people just interested in how I was doing, and some of my various views on things. And then of course in 1972 when I've been listed since in Who's Who in Government here in Washington, and of course that is a matter, all of those are a matter of record. I was related to World War II, I received many medals and honors of which one of them was Distinguished Flying Cross, and I'm very, very proud of, and I know that you have written about that assignment. But again for the record it was awarded for, as I said I was in a scout observation assignment at that time in which it was a single engine float -7 plane that landed near a ship and was hoisted aboardlyou knowlunder what have you _ l S_ ____ . Well this is also used in rescue work

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UL 31A 18 O: during the war. Well while on assignment in 1944, June, right off the coast of Yapp, a TBM crew had been shot down, and as you may or may not know normally the rescue operations were done by submarine. What would happen is when the fleet went into an island, or one of the operations we had a rescue submarine. And what would happen is that submarine would be off the coast underwater, and then recover pilots who then went in and what have you by periscope and take them out to where they could be then the submarine could surface and take them aboard or could transfer them . . . B: That was Sh~-CS O0 -!. D-' _ O: Oh yes, very, very smart. But in this particular case, off Yapp, this pilot was shot down right near the beach, and therefore the submarine could not stay submerged and go in there and recover him. So it was decided to try to make a rescue of this crew by sending me in to see if I could get it. And I remember very well landing, or attempting to land, near this beach. It was in kind of a half-moon there at Yapp. B: What were you flying? O: An OS2U Kingfisher built by v , single engine, and I landed and I had to zig-zag on the landing, but there was favy fighters at that time stafing the beach, and strafing the gun emplacements which were firing at A my plane. And they were hitting, and even splashing water with shellslyou know, but the thing is you are involved in an operation, you have a chance to rescue a crew of people, and so that means a lot you know because if you don't they're going to be captured. So it was as I saidright near the beach and I was caught kind of in cross-fire, but I went in and was able to get them onto the wing of the plane and zig-zag out to the area where I could take them on board, tk in the back seat, and then take off and fly back to the ship. B: You taxied out with them on the wing of the plane? O: Taxied out then, zig-zagging at high speed . . . LJ

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UL 31A 19 B: They were hanging on for dear life. 0: Right, that's right. And then until I could get them out to where I can safely take off outside of the range of gunfire. Well of course that was a Distinguished I / Flying Cross I was awarded for that having been observed by their Group commander who had watched it. But you know as I went in there, and I can remember this very well, that when , you know, they, when they were trying to neutralize the gunfire on the beach, and when I went into, it took some time to spot them in the water you know, that's not an easy thing to do. First of all they're shooting at you, you know, while you're doing this,but then you go in to make this landing, and as you, you know you have to slow down to speeds and so forth, and then they decided to call it off. But I really was determined at that point to do what I could even to take some hits in the plane, because you know lives were at stake, although they figured that you knowlthat it was a little bit too dangerous to do. But I elected to kind of overrule that and went ahead and, as if you know, and they were telling me not to lyou knyou know/ but went ahead and landed anyway, and brought them out. But, anyway, that was the Distinguished Flying Cross. I brought back planes from' that were, picked up the bullet holes etc. Participated in a lot of very interesting kind of things. I was shot down in a cross fire at __ with an OS2U, but fortunately was able to get back to the ship. I know that came back and I was kind of surprised to find that within six inches of my head you know a bullet had sailed through armor piercing had gone all the way through the airplane. So that was about the closest I think I came to not being around any longer. But again/Lew, you know we were talking earlier )AVW Rfa* I think I have been extremely fortunate, lucky in having had the opportunity to have taken advantage of a lot of the things that have happened to me. I was in the Pentagon, I was asked to head another particular thing that I remember well and will always cherish will be the press officer for an official state visit to Australia and New Zealand. This is one where you meet all the heads of'the

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UL 31A 20 O: various provinces and what have you in Australia. We were in there for a month. Visited all over Australia in a very state official kind of capacity that f normally is reserved to those who travel with the president. Because you meet, you're into the full gamut of the real exposure of that diplomatic core. I had never really had an opportunity to participate in it. Have participated I' in Medal of Honor presentations in the White House in my capacity asae public Information and out of the Pentagon I have had the opportunity of doing that, and the opportunity of many meetings with cabinet members along with the commissioner, you know in my present capacity as Public Information officer here in the Bureau. I travel with the commissioner, and I have visited probably as many Indian reservations as most people . . . I can't, it's kind of hard for me to visit, to feel that in four years that there's very few that I have not visited. And I've done extensive travel throughout the lower forty-eight, in fact all the states. And then of course my background in the /avy permitted me to visit all of the continents less Antartica, I never went there, but all the others. So I've had a chance to see various cultures, lifestyles. It's been very rewarding to match the two together. If time permits, and I know I'm doing most of the talking, and you probably do have ... B: Oh, I'm fascinated. O:p,..ave some questions, but I would like to clarify a couple little, a point about the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and if I could just a few minutes and do that . .. B: Oh, I, I hope you will. O: I would just like to have your, I know you're a historian of Indian affairs and I'm a leader of it but maybe we'll see if we mesh on how we think it is, because. . . B: You're not only a historian, you're a maker of history Tom re\' _ 0: Well/I guess maybe when the settlers first came to this country/there wasn't additionally, there wasn't much of a problem you know, not initially. But at some point in time later the two cultures became no longer compatible. The

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UL 31A 21 0: settlers way of division of land etc., and the Indian culture or use of land, the ownership and what have you by the settlers, and the use the native way, were diametrically opposed. These two could not jell any better maybe than Indian preference in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the Civil Service Merit Promotion System. You know you can't have a happy marriage of either of these because they are diametrically opposed. But)anywaylno particular problem initially, but at a point later these were no longer compatible, which eventually led to restricting the Indian to reservations or restricting his ability to do those things that he had done before. Now the \O'%rCrAio-/. I guess on the other side is kind of contained in Thomas Jefferson's teaching d in that we are an oppressed people coming to this country, but we're bringing to this people an advanced civilization over what we find here. That was kind of his interpretation. So therefore the solution of the problem would be to educate, civilize, and train the Indian over to our way, and then there's plenty of land and natural resources for everyone. Now the only problem with that is it had varying degrees of acceptance by the Indians, you know)there . . . B: Which is understandable. 0: Oh absolutely. very, you know some did and some didn't. I think the Lumbees probably adjusted pretty well to that. Anyway they didn't get removed in the Indian Removal Act, you know when the decision was made to remove all the Indians from . _. . o they learned to farm and till the soil and not be a particular big problem, anyway they did not get moved. But the Bureau of Indian Affairs was then formed in 1824 under the War Department. It operates under, and then in 1849 it was transferred to the Department of the Interior where it, you know it's one of the oldest agencies of the government. It operates under the legislative authority of the Snyder Act, and you're familiar with that, and it states that basically the, it's a general authorization of the Congress, in that A the Congress will appropriate monies for the general administration, welfare,

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UL 31A 22 0: health, protection etc. for Indians quote "throughout the land." Well/if you look at that authorization and that you have a bureau charged with the advocacy for Indians why have the Indians)you know kind of fallen to all of the lowest levels of all of your sociological economic measurements that you can have. He's gone to the bottom of it. How can that happen with a, with a bureau charged 27 us lo' with the responsibility. Certain'that Snyder Act does not limit Sir performing A A the duties that we want. Well now)first of all the Bureau of Indian Affairs is an agency of government that administers a policy. In this particular case it's the federal Indian policy. Now you have to go back and look at that federal Indian policy, and see if policies have always, really and truly, been in the b5tf interest of the Indians. See that's the, that's kind of the key. Our policies over the years, at least up until 1970 was a policy to train and educate the Indian to take his rightful place in society. You know the old melting pot, the assimilation thing. Well the administration by the bureau was a trustee relationship. It, the federal Indian policy is one in which is attained through treaty and executive orders. It's a trustee relationship. If we as the federal government-. . B: And the treaty is necessary isn't it? 0: Absolutely. B: The treaty is a legal necessity. 0: W/ll the main thing is, is the role between the government and Indians is a trustee one, so if we don't hold anything in trust for a tribe, then there is no relationship between the federal government B: No grounds for it. 0: No, no because it's a trustee. It'd not a guardian of Indian people. The bureau is not a guardian of the people. It's got nothing to do with whether an individual is _o,-_ orc nS__ or what have you. Our policy in the bureau is thisi--t is a relationship between 264 tribes, bands and groups

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UL 31A 23 O: in the lower forty-eight plus an additional 200 villages in Alaska, the Alaskan natives. Now in order to be eligible for services in the Bureau of Indian -2 17 D 64Affairs/an in individual must be an enrolled member of one of these A iS tribes that has) you know/this treaty executive order relationship that we hold part of Qoee-f fifty million acres of land in trust for. If you're an enrolled member of that living on or near the reservation, and for most of all of our programs, of one-fourth blood quantum, then that is the establishment of that relationship. So if the Indian who, it can be to<4 tl¾s moves off into the urban area, then as I said)that relationship is not, you know, the trustee thing is not with an Indian living in Raleigh, North Carolina for instance. I mean he can four-fourths Navaho, move; to Raleigh, and the A program thing is back in Navaho, you know/we have our relationship with the Navaho tribe. He's an enrolled member but our programs are back at Navaho for this particular individual. So that's kind of misunderstood sometimes in . . . B: And people are, some newsmen have said if you're off reservation you're no longer an Indian. O: Wellyou know that's their you know, an interpretation. There is no legal definition for an Indian)as you're quite well aware. I think most general is)an Indian is a person of Indian ancestrykind of known to his peers as an Indian who, who self-identifies himself as an Indian, and is known as an Indian by his peers. That's generally, basically it. But that's, and then/of course if you look at the history of the census it washAl an Indian is a person who is, who you know/regards himself or identifies himself as an Indian. B: So the criteria differs depending on the particular branch of the federal government, doesn't it? O: Well, I'm really only speaking of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Now of course we have two tribes right here in Virginia that are state reservations. We have no relationship from the federal government to those reservations. Got nothing to do mah . . .

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UL 31A 24 .7 B: 0: That's correct. And we have other state,, , B: 0: Right )onrltes"tis and the ___________ , but we have other state reservations on the east that have no relationship because their relationship is within the state that they reside. In other words the federal government does not hold their land in trust. It's held by either themselves or it's held by the state. So I think that one must understand that relationship in order to understand the federal governments role. B: It's a legal working basis. 0: That is correct. It's as I said a trustee. If the United State Government held, say)all or most of Rrmimea County in trust for Lumbees then you would have that relationship. If you don't then it is not there. Now what, what about the thing of whether it should be that way or not is not for us to decide. That's the way it islyou know. That's the fact in it. If somebody wants to change, then you know there are mechanisms to seek changes. Senate Joint A ) } Resolution 133 is going to study that, and to look at whether the relationship that the government has had with Indians is the true and right and correct one. Now really on the other side, or defensible for the government's position on this is when an Indian leaves this federal Indian relationship or leaves the reservation, you know since 1924 he was given full citizenship and the right to vote. The government, or our positions this that when an Indian leaves the federal Indian relationship or leaves the reservation, moves into an urban or rural area, he's entitled to all the rights, benefits, privilegesIetc.las any other citizen. Therefore the government has taken the position that an Indian has those rights and therefore it is the state, city, county or what have you' responsibility . . B: It's their responsibility. O: .to provide him every what thing is necessary in order that he may, he has the

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UL 31A 25 0: full rights as anyone else. The bigger question is when an Indian leaves should he be treated any differently that any other ethnic group. Well the Congress has not decided to change tbis at this time. But it should be different, you know, we don't know. But you remember the /resident kind of reversed all that federal Indian policy in 1970. B: President Richard Nixon. 0: Right, you know he came out wit hhat historic message of July 8, in which basically were three parts. One$ Ye're gonna, you know, that the present or that past policy of dealing across the board with Indians has really, is now the most deprived, depressed group of people in the United States, under a policy that was supposed to benefit him. But you can, you know, I think it, there's no question that this was the finest policy that has ever been established in Indian affairs. Because one of the, you know you can look at it Lew real quickly that, for instance the rl cofvCCS in Florida, they have very little relationship with the San Carlos Apaches in Arizona. What do they have really oin common, these 264 groups, any more than. all the caucasiAns in Europe would agree on priority. It's very hard to get a conformant, or a unified position among Indians because they are just like anyone else. They have different priorities, different viewpoints on things, and what have you. So this selfdetermination without termination was a very good, sound policy. It was one in which there were three points to it, self-determination without termination, it was going to change the Bureau of Indian Affairs from a management organization to a technical service organization, and then third, involve Indians in the decision-making processes of government. These three key items were the points within that thing. Now what does that really mean. Well the self-determination would be Ifor instance that . . . say(since the Seminoles or/say/the Mississippi Choctaw tribe would come up with long range plans to solve Mississippi Choctaw problems. The Bureau of Indian Affairs agency there at Choctaw would support

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UL 31A 26 O: that tribe in solution of those problems within the funding of that agency. A They would involve the tribe in the budgeting process to determine those priorities, and it would not be contingent on what's going on at the other 263. Because Navahos may want to go a different direction. Now the, as I said the bureau the tribes would determine the future and direction that they should o, and not have it contingent on the others. The consultation and bringing Indians into the bureau, you know I was the recipient of that, A of that policy. I was asked to come into the bureau in that it was changing to be more responsive to Indians. We got, you know we had more awareness, the legislative proposals were submitted to the Congress, and there have been you know monumental changes. But there's been another thing. You know in that message it stated that, it well-defined the bureau's role and the, and the eligibility for services out of the bureau. It stated something else. It stated thatlyou know, at that time half the Indians in the United States lived under the umbrella of the bureau, and half do not. Yo -merw t, you know, Lumbees are a good example, you know. There's a lot of Indians outside the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Now the residents message stated that, that OEO would be the lead agency in coordinating other departments in providing or seeing that other Indians outside of the Bureau of Indian Affairs, their assistance is put together. That office is not in the office of Native American Programs in HEW. Now they are charged with the off-reservation or those Indians who fall outside the v O( vi\ZK of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. But I thought that that would be helpful to distinguish what is that federal Indian relationship, why isAthat way, and as I said I'm not defending it one way or the other, I'm just saying that's the way it is. It was established 4.,escthrough treaty and executive order. If we hold ftsources in trust, then:we have it, if not then it's outside the bureau. B: Well I certainly am glad you explained that relationship between the government,

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UL 31A 27 B: these two distincly different groups legally. But inas much as the tape is A running short/I want to ask you, there's so many other things that I'd like to ask you, and we just don't have the time. You don't have the time, the tape's running out. For example, what are you going to do the rest of the day? I know how busy you are, tell us something about it. 0: Well)Lew)this is a very exciting kind of an office. I run inquiries for newsmen to briefings for various people, including this afternoon I have the pleasant assignment of spending two hours with the wife of the Prime Minister of Luxemburglwho has a very much of an interest in Indian affairs, and I will be spending as I said/that time briefing her on general, those things that she has a great d~l of interest in. For your .information)she is also a journalist which you'll have an interest in. B: You have a lot in common then. O: I'll mention you to her, and maybe you'll have some communication with her if she has an interest in pursuing that, but her name is Mrs. Lillian _ and I will spend about two hours. She's having lunch today with the ambassador and state department people that flew into New York yesterday, and said high A I on her list)of course, is learning more about American Indians. But next week I'll be going out to a National Indian Education meeting in Phoenix, Arizona on the thirteenth, then on the fourteenth Scotsdale for a National Indian Housing conference. On the twenty-fifth I'll be going up to Bismark, North Dakota to meet with the United Tribes on a, in discussion of an Aberdeen area office. They have some things with the commissioner of Indian Affairs. I look very much forward to an early down to Pembroke, of course my . . . B: We're looking for you Tom. O: I'll be down there you know during the, at least the Christmas time. I don't know whether I'll be able to make it for Thanksgiving or notlbut you knowlmy, you can, you can move the people, you know the Lumbees especially out of there but

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UL 31A 28 0: home's still in Rebr*tMn County to me, and although I am very happy with my assignment here Lew, I have a very exciting one, and I run into things from, why would you work the Bureau of Indian Affairs with all the past histories of what has happened Indians, how do you defend going in with the calvary, and moving out the Chickasaws in 1835. . . B: You don't have to do thatJdo you? 0: Well you know I got a call just recently saying, "How could you as an official spokesman of the government defend morally, legally, or any other way, having dealt with the particular treaty, and then going in there later, and routing the people out youknow, and taking their land?" And of course then you have to put things in perspective. You've got to understand the system of government, that no Congress can bind the future Congress. The Congress 4 -A ~¢C 4-c.AvL ) negotiated 'em with Indians, but the thing isa future Congress may re-negotiate that treaty, and in most cases they did under the quame, you know, saying it's considered in the best interest of the United States. So really to understand it you must take a position that,# we have treaties with other countries now. Fifty years from now it may be decided that quote " in the interest of the United States, that it might need to be altered." But again, Stll y_ I'd just like to Apy how happy I am to have seen you, and participate in this, and maybe we can do it again when we have, have more time. My best to your son/ Lew. I'm a great admirer of his efforts on behalf of the Carolina Indian Voice, and again I hope something can be done to memorialize all of the, our people that I have great admiration for as I've said especially the Indian leadership, Paul Sampson, a coach that I have great, who had a great influence on my life, through athletics and continuation in school. Of course my parents and all of the ones who helped encourage me to continue in education. But as I said, if that permit you to take the advantage of the other, you know. And if you, my grandfather who could see just dividing, continuing to divide up the land, it's gonna

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UL 31A 29 0: run out pretty soon, because you can't do it that way. But Lew/again, thanks atot, and wish you well, and please stay in touch. B: We'll certainly do that, and we want to thank you so much. This is such a valuable and enlighting interview. Your explanations as always are so clear, your heart is in the right place, and your brain too. Always)Tom, you're always there at the right time doing the right thing. And we are so honored to have this interview with you, and you are so kind to take this time off from your very busy schedule and sit down and talk with us. And I want to wish you God's speed in all that you attempt to do, because you do everything so well, and thank you from the bottom of my heart. 0: Thank you very much Lew.